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Old 10-21-2005, 06:55 AM   #16
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Can these different interperatations of feminism really be culturally relativistic excuses for misogyny?
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Old 10-21-2005, 07:20 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by foray
I had the intelligent reader in mind.
I find that unnecessary, but perhaps you feel I asked for it.

I have read Eunuch myself and was not surprised to see that you had also--I recognized Greer's turns of phrase in your comments about bras in the "Holland bans the burka" thread a few days back. And I am well aware of her anti-imperialist stances on Aboriginal rights, female genital mutilation and the like. However, as a South Asianist (I am a professor of political science and conduct research in India) I have also noticed that certain highly selective readings of Greer's work--glossing over her attacks on family, religion and monogamy, for instance, while embracing her reductionist portrayal of Western "femininity" standards as the keystone of patriarchy--have obtained some currency in certain anti-Western circles, much as Camille Paglia's antifeminist views have been selectively co-opted by certain men who would prefer not to consider Paglia's low opinion of heterosexual males.

I am also aware that as Greer got older and, frankly, less able to attract the multiple sexual partners she once bragged about having, she changed her tune on "sexual liberation" quite a bit and began linking her analysis of femininity-as-oppression to a gloomy and hostile view of male sexuality, pretty much draining her works of the hippie-anarchist playfulness that had once served to temper her painfully obvious anger and embitteredness. I actually had the impression she was pretty contemptuous of Third Wave feminism, too, what with her ridiculing of "girl power" and so forth. Anyway, call me merciless, but reading about her newfound asceticism (so to speak) only tempted me to rebukingly cite Malcolm X: the chickens always do come home to roost.

The above is all by way of contextualizing my own particular take on Greer, though--I don't mean to suggest it has anything to do with yours. Please feel free to correct my perceptions about the reasons for her appeal outside the Eurocentric world; it might help me keep some perspective and stay calm next time I get treated to a condescending misappropriation of Western femininity critique by someone who has just smugly dismissed Western sexual mores as promiscuous hedonism, and our manner of dress as based on titillation. It is partly because I have repeatedly had such experiences in my travels that I object to reflexive and uninformed characterizations of burka-wearing (for example) as "women's oppression".

My apologies for offending you, and my thanks for responding despite it.

~ Peace.
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Old 10-21-2005, 09:33 AM   #18
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Guy Debord

Edward de Bono
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Old 10-21-2005, 09:35 AM   #19
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Eugene Debs. He was a ground-breaker in American political philosophy, and absolutely fearless. He went to jail twice for his beliefs, but he never gave them up.
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Old 10-21-2005, 09:37 AM   #20
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If Jesus is a "radical thinker" then I'd say him. In some ways he was and still is "radical" sad as that might be to say.

Anyone who truly follows and adheres to what they think and believe regardless of personal consequences.
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Old 10-21-2005, 12:46 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

I find that unnecessary, but perhaps you feel I asked for it.
I regret the slight. Of course I did not mean that you are not intelligent; I was just caught off-guard by someone taking my Greer paraphrase as the only thing I understood feminism to mean.

Quote:
I have read Eunuch myself and was not surprised to see that you had also--I recognized Greer's turns of phrase in your comments about bras in the "Holland bans the burka" thread a few days back.

I am also aware that as Greer got older and, frankly, less able to attract the multiple sexual partners she once bragged about having, she changed her tune on "sexual liberation" quite a bit and began linking her analysis of femininity-as-oppression to a gloomy and hostile view of male sexuality, pretty much draining her works of the hippie-anarchist playfulness that had once served to temper her painfully obvious anger and embitteredness.

I actually had the impression she was pretty contemptuous of Third Wave feminism, too, what with her ridiculing of "girl power" and so forth. Anyway, call me merciless, but reading about her newfound asceticism (so to speak) only tempted me to rebukingly cite Malcolm X: the chickens always do come home to roost.
Yes, I do think our impressions of her are different and you're wholly entitled to yours. She is compelling to behold in person, very sexy, charming and brimming with energy, as well as utterly frightening. Her entire body moves when she speaks. Hm, can you see the stars in my eyes... As for being contemptuous of Third Wave feminism, I do not get that, because she is loud and clear one of the "white" voices for third world emancipation on its own terms, and does not subscribe to black-and-white pro-choice/pro-life rhetoric, for eg.

Quote:
[B} The above is all by way of contextualizing my own particular take on Greer, though--I don't mean to suggest it has anything to do with yours. Please feel free to correct my perceptions about the reasons for her appeal outside the Eurocentric world; it might help me keep some perspective and stay calm next time I get treated to a condescending misappropriation of Western femininity critique by someone who has just smugly dismissed Western sexual mores as promiscuous hedonism, and our manner of dress as based on titillation. It is partly because I have repeatedly had such experiences in my travels that I object to reflexive and uninformed characterizations of burka-wearing (for example) as "women's oppression". [/B]
Yes. It's unfortunate that expats/tourists here get stereotyped as that. Worse is when you are unable to "stay calm", then they brand you a feisty western woman, making it all the more irritating.

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Forgive me, but I find it difficult to believe you genuinely admire Germaine Greer.


So it's all good, yolland.

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Old 10-21-2005, 12:49 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
F.A. Hayek, John Stuart Mill, Karl Popper, to some extent Ayn Rand but not so dogmatic, Milton Friedman etc.
Haven't read any of those, except at second hand, i.e. reading in economics textbooks about the theories espoused by Hayek, etc, but they are probably all influential to some extent or other on my generally free market leanings.
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Old 10-21-2005, 01:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by foray
So it's all good, yolland.
Yes it is, thank you for the kind and thoughtful response. I would like to hear more about which of Greer's ideas have been formative for you and how, but alas I have too much else to tend to right now. Plus, I just blew 2 hours in the "War on Christmas" thread. (Which I don't recommend, it truly wasn't worth it.)

Perhaps another time.

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Old 10-21-2005, 02:22 PM   #24
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hmmm ... i'm always drawn to people who espouse radical ideas via their artwork as opposed to straight-ahead political writing. perhaps the radical thinking is the artwork itself, or perhaps it's in the construction of the artwork. anyway, these are some radical thinkers i enjoy:

Irvine Welsh
Oscar Wilde
Martin Scorsese
Vladimir Nabokov
Toni Morrison
Charlotte Perkins Gilman
Kurt Vonnegut
Samuel Beckett
Harper Lee
Italo Calvino
Ian McEwen
Albert Camus
Walt Whitman
Emerson




there must be more i'm missing ...
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Old 10-21-2005, 02:50 PM   #25
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Doris Lessing
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:17 PM   #26
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Gggggrrrreeaat thread.
I would add double ditto and AMEN on many of the excellent posts and peops found here. I would, however, like to add some names I *didn't* see. Only one of the four on the list was/is friends with Bono, as far as I know.

Starhawk
http://www.starhawk.org

Hakim Bey
http://www.hermetic.com/bey/

Diane di Prima
http://dianediprima.com/

Allen Ginsberg
http://www.allenginsberg.org/
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
hmmm ... i'm always drawn to people who espouse radical ideas via their artwork as opposed to straight-ahead political writing. perhaps the radical thinking is the artwork itself, or perhaps it's in the construction of the artwork. anyway, these are some radical thinkers i enjoy:

Irvine Welsh
Oscar Wilde
Martin Scorsese
Vladimir Nabokov
Toni Morrison
Charlotte Perkins Gilman
Kurt Vonnegut
Samuel Beckett
Harper Lee
Italo Calvino
Ian McEwen
Albert Camus
Walt Whitman
Emerson




there must be more i'm missing ...
Excellent list. Beckett.

Some obvious ones that haven't been mentioned yet...Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman, Susan Sontag, Cornel West. I'll probably think of more later.
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:22 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anu

Diane di Prima
http://dianediprima.com/

Allen Ginsberg
http://www.allenginsberg.org/
yeah! I don't particularly like Diane di Prima's poetry but she's still cool. Which brings me to Jack Kerouac, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Bob Dylan, Woody Guthrie.
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:23 PM   #29
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Re: Re: Your Favorite Radical Thinkers!

Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Ernesto "Che" Guevara. Simon Bolivar.

[...]

Lots of musicians/ artists; Bob Marley, John Lennon,..
nice list, hiphop. just picking a few of the highlights there.
lenin would currently top my list.
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:32 PM   #30
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Flannery O'Conner
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