You Vote, You Fight

[speedracer]

people who refuse to listen to artists based on the artist's political views make me sad.

after all... if i didn't watch a movie or listen to a record based on the person's political beliefs, i'd be listening to a lot of pat boone.

Plus Ted Nugent, the Ramones and Charlie Daniels.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

the Ramones

that is ironic, isn't it?

 

[Hawk269]

people who refuse to listen to artists based on the artist's political views make me sad.

after all... if i didn't watch a movie or listen to a record based on the person's political beliefs, i'd be listening to a lot of pat boone.

If you think the artist's work and their beliefs are completely separate, you are deluding yourself.

When the two are closely intertwined, as is *clearly* the case with U2 and REM, supporting that work is supporting the beliefs that the work represents. That would be like you sitting there, listening to "Crumbs From Your Table" from the new U2 album and enjoying the song, even though you completely disagree with African aid. (This is an analogy, not a reflection of what you actually believe on this issue)

When the music itself is created to communicate a belief, don't sit there and tell me you have your mind turned off and are just tapping your foot because the beat is great. If so, we like music, and especially U2, for VASTLY different reasons.

 

[sharky]

I think the point is, at least Kerry was planning to get us out of there. I love a quote I saw about Kerry's position -- he voted to give Bush the keys to the car, not to drive it off a cliff.

Fact remains, there are still no weapons of mass destruction, 380 tons of explosives are missing, there are no streets lined with flowers, no Bush Squares. Bush lied to us -- he was out for blood and oil from Day One. Why is Iraq not paying back the $87 billion in oil revenue? Because Bush decreed it. I do believe Kerry would have gotten us out of Iraq quicker and all this b.s. about not needing the world's permission is crap. We have a G7 country and a bunch of third-worlds in our coalition. Oh boy, Georgia -- the country -- is sending more troops. Not gonna do it.

As for Hawk's first comment, you may not be able to make a choice especially if we continue on the path we are now. There is not a country of evil, it's an axis of evil. We're stretched too thin already and more soldiers are dying everyday. Where do you think the new ones are going to come from? First, delay deadlines for when the National Guard members can get out, then institute a draft. It would not be a surprise at this point.

 

[nbcrusader]

If you think the artist's work and their beliefs are completely separate, you are deluding yourself.

They are easily separated and should be separated. Otherwise, should we judge people based on their musical preferences? Should we ascribe the actions of the artist to the person who enjoys the art?

 

[speedracer]

If you think the artist's work and their beliefs are completely separate, you are deluding yourself.

When the two are closely intertwined, as is *clearly* the case with U2 and REM, supporting that work is supporting the beliefs that the work represents. That would be like you sitting there, listening to "Crumbs From Your Table" from the new U2 album and enjoying the song, even though you completely disagree with African aid. (This is an analogy, not a reflection of what you actually believe on this issue)

When the music itself is created to communicate a belief, don't sit there and tell me you have your mind turned off and are just tapping your foot because the beat is great. If so, we like music, and especially U2, for VASTLY different reasons.

Replace music with literature, and I think you'll end up reevaluating your argument.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

I agree with speedracer....

 

[nbcrusader]

Could we extrapolate Hawk's argument to other things as well? You vote - you pay the taxes?

 

[STING2]

Those who voted for Bush should be willing to fight his war. And send your kids over there once they are old enough to fight. This way, when the flag draped coffin comes back, you’ll see what your vote got you.

Just as if your willing to send the police and fireman in your community and throughout America to help secure it and in the process get killed and maimed for you and others, as they do every year, then you should be willing to do it yourself or send your kid. Right?

 

[speedracer]

Actually, I was just thinking that if we take seriously Hawk's main thesis, then this precludes disabled people and possibly women from taking a position on military matters.

 

[STING2]

If you think the artist's work and their beliefs are completely separate, you are deluding yourself.

When the two are closely intertwined, as is *clearly* the case with U2 and REM, supporting that work is supporting the beliefs that the work represents. That would be like you sitting there, listening to "Crumbs From Your Table" from the new U2 album and enjoying the song, even though you completely disagree with African aid. (This is an analogy, not a reflection of what you actually believe on this issue)

When the music itself is created to communicate a belief, don't sit there and tell me you have your mind turned off and are just tapping your foot because the beat is great. If so, we like music, and especially U2, for VASTLY different reasons.

I get sick and tired of fans presuming to know precisely what U2 means with this song or that song or that this particular riff means this or the band supports this or that. The fact is, U2 has not presented their views on a wide variety of issues.

Should we presume that Larry believes in slavery because he wore the Confederate Flag on his Jean Jacket for much of the October tour?

Indeed the band has clarified their feelings on some issues. They are not pacifist. They do support military action and in fact supported military action in Afghanistan as well as back in the 1990s in Bosnia and Kosovo. Just read "Until The End Of the World" or the 2001 year end issue of Hot Press to see that.

Any one can listen to U2 and draw from their music what they want to. I think it is totally unnecessary that one would have to align all their political and social beliefs in order to listen to or enjoy an artist work. I'm sure even the members of U2 have their share of disagreements about things including politics as most people do.

 

[nbcrusader]

Should we presume that Larry believes in slavery because he wore the Confederate Flag on his Jean Jacket for much of the October tour?

 

[STING2]

Actually, I was just thinking that if we take seriously Hawk's main thesis, then this precludes disabled people and possibly women from taking a position on military matters.

One could take it even further. For those not serving in the military, you don't get to vote.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

LOL.... I knew it! Larry supports the confederacy!!! The South will rise again!

 

[Hawk269]

Re: Re: You Vote, You Fight

Just as if your willing to send the police and fireman in your community and throughout America to help secure it and in the process get killed and maimed for you and others, as they do every year, then you should be willing to do it yourself or send your kid. Right?

First, at least I know with fire and crime that there is a clear and present danger. So, I would serve if needed and would send my kid as well. With Iraq, I was fed misleading information by the government that they used to rationalize a war based on oil and corporate profit. (no-bid contracts, etc.)

Here's MY version of your analogy - you're the fire chief and you sound the alarm saying there's a huge fire that's going to burn the city down. Then, after going there and fighting the fire, I find out that the fire wasn't going to burn the city down at all. In fact, it was a grease fire that was just like all the others that happen around town (like at Kim Jong's house and Ayatollah's house). You just wanted to make sure that your buddies at Acme Fire Hoses got to make money from the equipment and supplies I used to fight the fire. Plus, you liked all the nice stuff inside the house that had the fire. So, you figured the payoff for this fire was worth going for. And you got to be a bigtime fire chief and a leader, because people wanted to get revenge for that huge real fire we had last year. Hooray for you!

On a side note, I can't go serve in the fire dept. because we have a budget shortage here in NYC thanks to the $87 billion that went to Iraq, so they had to close a bunch of firehouses. Thanks for that!

 

[Liesje]

Those who voted for Bush should be willing to fight his war. And send your kids over there once they are old enough to fight. This way, when the flag draped coffin comes back, you’ll see what your vote got you.

So....those who voted for Kerry should be willing to abort a fully developed fetus?

And last time I checked, PARENTS do not enlist their children in the army.