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Old 03-12-2005, 08:40 PM   #1
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You can preach when, and only, when..

(For those who are oppressed. )

If you live in a free democracy, that

- applies international human rights treaties
- that has signed up to the Kyoto treaty to protect our enviroment
- that does not apply the death penalty to children and "sub-normal" adults
- and does not allow theocracy to interfere in its system of government, then this is for you.

Otherwise, turn away now.

"In the town of Springhill Novia Scotia,
Down in the dark of a Cumberland mine,
There's blood in the coal and miners' lives
In roads that never saw sun nor sky
In the town
Ye you don't sleep easy
often the earth will tremble and groan
When the earth is restless, miners die
Where bone and blood is the price of coal
Late in the year of '88
It's dark in the grave of a Cumberland mine
listen to the shouts of the black faced miners
listen to the call of the rescue team
We have no water and no bread
And we're livin on songs and hope instead
We're livin' on songs and hope instead
In the town of Springhill, Novia Scotia
There's blood
In roads that never saw sun or sky..
In roads that never saw sun or sky
Down in the dark of the mine
In roads that never saw sun nor.
Bone and blood is the price of coal.
Bone and blood is the price of coal"


So, today, bone and blood is the price of OIL.

1,000,000 dead Iraqis, but hey who cares.

Cheap oil to run our 4by4's, an that's all that matters, isn't it.
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:01 PM   #2
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Islam is a religion of peace, Israel and USA are the real terrorists, No Blood for Oil, Saddam may have been a dictator but he provided stability = Good Thought Patterns.

Global Warming deserves more investigation, Arafat was a terrorist, A lot of terrorists are Muslims (but not all Muslims are terrorists), human beings are all equal and all deserve to live freely = Bad Thought Patterns.

I get it, free speech is for uber-liberals only ~ us Right Wing Death Beasts better STFU and go back to doing what we supposedly do best; like cramming bibles into public schools and beating up gays, oh and we also are meant to be consistently derrogatory towards anything foreign; um Euroweenies or something to that effect, A-Rabs with the extra emphasis on the "A", comeon we have to be able to demonstrate our total ignorance of the world and utter xenophobia and racism if we expect to meet the expectations of those enlightened individuals who understand the nuances of diplomacy in the face of violence, the importance of reconcilliation and self-flagellation when presented with matters of a nations past and the most important black armband to be used in all matters historical.

And one more point, where did you get a figure of 1,000,000 dead Iraqi's ~ that is allready 10 freaking times the number given in the already flawed lancet survey. Do facts even matter when making a point. Unless of course you were taking the numbers killed under the sanctions and Oil For Food program which through manipulation by Saddam through bribing UN officials was able to make him a tidy profit and keep the Iraqi people powerless against the regime ~ so maybe that was a cunning criticism of the UN and it's enabling of mass murder in Iraq.
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:02 PM   #3
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preach what?
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Islam is a religion of peace, Israel and USA are the real terrorists
.
Define "terrorism".
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
preach what?
America preaches to the rest of the world all the time on "human rights". When it applies the principles suggested above, it may be in a position to preach.

Otherwise, no thanks.
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:09 PM   #6
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Terrorism ~ the deliberate targeting of noncombatants by a non-state actor for purpose of political statement, media attention or in certain situations religious fervor.

If US soldiers opened fire against a crowd of unarmed civilians in Iraq then that would be a war crime or a crime against humanity.

If guys with guns go out and gun down a dozen people at a tourist attraction to serve their political cause then that would be terrorism.
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer


And one more point, where did you get a figure of 1,000,000 dead Iraqi's ~ that is allready 10 freaking times the number given in the already flawed lancet survey. Do facts even matter when making a point. Unless of course you were taking the numbers killed under the sanctions and Oil For Food program which through manipulation by Saddam through bribing UN officials was able to make him a tidy profit and keep the Iraqi people powerless against the regime ~ so maybe that was a cunning criticism of the UN and it's enabling of mass murder in Iraq.
Correct, I am including the deaths as a result of "Allied", i.e. US and Britain engendered sanctions against Iraq. The sanctions in themselves were a form of disgraceful state-sponsored terrorism, specifically put in place to drag the Iraqi nation to its knees to get more oil for the West. In other words, terrorism, writ large.

There can be no moral equivalence between invader and freedom fighter.
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Terrorism ~ the deliberate targeting of noncombatants by a non-state actor for purpose of political statement, media attention or in certain situations religious fervor.

If US soldiers opened fire against a crowd of unarmed civilians in Iraq then that would be a war crime or a crime against humanity.

If guys with guns go out and gun down a dozen people at a tourist attraction to serve their political cause then that would be terrorism.
So how would you consider:-

(1) The Israeli invasion and stealing of Palestinian land, followed up by decades of oppression and shooting of 10 year old kids?

(2) Nelson Mandela and the ANC. Once considered terrorists, they now run South Africa. Perhaps you would prefer to go back to the old days of Apartheid era South Africa?

(3) Michael Collins, Eamon DeValera and others, considered "terrorists" by the Brit invaders, now considered the founders of the Irish nation.

But it's easy for a citizen of a country that never had to fight for its own freedom to preach to others about 'terrorism'...
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:34 PM   #9
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1: Ignoring the obvious distortion and you outright ignoring the issues of PLO Arab terrorism and the '67 War ~ any crimes commited by the IDF are done by a millitary representing a state actor ~ these actions when they occur are prosecuted to the full extent of the law and many an Israeli soldier has been punished harshley for murdering innocent people. I cannot think of any millitary that is more disciplined when operating within a hostile environment as the IDF ~ one of the greatest armies in the world ~ and I say this as one totally biased observer with zionist sympathies and tendancies. While the occasional actions may be morally reprehensable they are not terrorism as it is conducted by a state actor.

2: Many governments brand opponents terrorists but did the actions of Mandela and the ANC meet the definition I outlined above. Was the ANC exclusively targeting noncombatants to make their point?

3: Again it is a case of do their actions meet the definition; while groups may consider them to be freedom fighters or terrorists did their actions justify the label.

It is a very difficult thing to define, I am not a lawyer ~ I am just breifly saying that there is a difference between states murdering lots of people and terrorists doing it. I am not saying that one is worse than another or one is better than another I am just saying that there is a difference between the two.
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Old 03-13-2005, 04:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Correct, I am including the deaths as a result of "Allied", i.e. US and Britain engendered sanctions against Iraq. The sanctions in themselves were a form of disgraceful state-sponsored terrorism, specifically put in place to drag the Iraqi nation to its knees to get more oil for the West. In other words, terrorism, writ large.
And your response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait would have been...?
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Old 03-13-2005, 04:29 PM   #11
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I agree that Iraq should have been driven out of Kuwait but I do not agree with the subsequent sanctions regime. And yes, UN officials unjustly enriched themselves in the oil for food program.
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Old 03-13-2005, 04:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer


Global Warming deserves more investigation,

This really stands out
and lessens any credibility your positions might have.


Most everybody gets it by now
except the ones that are profiting by the status quo.

This is as creditable as when the tobacco CEOs said there was no conclusive proof that tobacco caused cancer.
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Old 03-13-2005, 04:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Terrorism ~ the deliberate targeting of noncombatants by a non-state actor for purpose of political statement, media attention or in certain situations religious fervor.

So you are saying Israel was founded on terrorism.
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Old 03-13-2005, 04:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer


If US soldiers opened fire against a crowd of unarmed civilians in Iraq then that would be a war crime or a crime against humanity.


and has this happened?
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Old 03-13-2005, 05:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer



If guys with guns go out and gun down a dozen people at a tourist attraction to serve their political cause then that would be terrorism.

see King David Hotel 1946

and other bombings by Israli terrorists
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