You are no MLK!!!!!!! You are no Kennedy!!!!

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Dreadsox

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Clinton’s Civil Rights Lesson
By Sarah Wheaton

DOVER, N.H. — As they barnstorm through New Hampshire, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton and her husband are often introduced by supporters who once backed another candidate but converted to her cause.
Today, in Dover, Francine Torge, a former John Edwards supporter, said this while introducing Mrs. Clinton: “Some people compare one of the other candidates to John F. Kennedy. But he was assassinated. And Lyndon Baines Johnson was the one who actually” passed the civil rights legislation.
The comment, an apparent reference to Senator Barack Obama, is particularly striking given documented fears among blacks that Mr. Obama will be assassinated if elected.
Phil Singer, a Clinton spokesman said: “We were not aware that this person was going to make those comments and disapprove of them completely. They were totally inappropriate.”

Mrs. Clinton’s expression did not change noticeably when Ms. Torge made the comment.
Only a few hours later, she brought up the civil rights legislation herself in remarks to a Fox News correspondent.
Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama have been in a running feud arising from her suggestion at Saturday’s debate that he was raising “false hope.”
Mr. Obama responded that Mr. Kennedy did not decide going to the moon was a false hope and that Martin Luther King, Jr. did not see ending segregation as such.
“Dr. King’s dream began to be realized when President Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act,” Mrs. Clinton said when asked about Mr. Obama’s rejoinder by Fox’s Major Garrett after her speech in Dover. “It took a president to get it done.”
The Obama campaign declined to comment on either of those remarks.
Later, during an appearance in Salem, Mrs. Clinton refined her remarks on Fox:
“You know, today Senator Obama used President John F. Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to criticize me. He basically compared himself to our greatest heroes because they gave great speeches.
“President Kennedy was in Congress for 14 years. He was a war hero. He was a man of great accomplishments and readiness to be president. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. led a movement. He was gassed. He was beaten. He was jailed. And he gave a speech that was one of the most beautifully, profoundly important speeches ever written in America, the “I have a dream” speech.
“And then he worked with President Johnson to get the civil rights laws passed, because the dream couldn’t be realized until finally it was legally permissible for people of all colors and backgrounds and races and ethnicities to be accepted as citizens.
“I’m running for president because I believe that there is not a contradiction between experience and change.”
 
Absolutely horrible thing to say on the part of whoever this Francine Torge was.

That said, while I can definitely understand the Obama/Kennedy comparisons, I don't see comparing him to King at all. King was NOT a politician and such pull and presence as he had with people, which was built up over years of extraordinary strife, was very much that of a preacher and spiritual leader. I don't see that being Obama's gestalt at all.
 
yolland said:
That said, while I can definitely understand the Obama/Kennedy comparisons, I don't see comparing him to King at all.

The comparisons I've seen between Obama and MLK have been related to things like speaking style (cadence). Also, the obstacles both overcame.
 
It is reasonable to compare Obama to JFK and MLK jr


but only if you want to disregard the life histories and accomplishments of JFK and MLK jr

So if Obama is your man primarily because you choose to see him as black and young
and you want to fill his very commendable life and very short list of accomplishments
with images of JFK and MLK jr

Then be my guest

I like the fellow just fine

But, I am not disperate to make him something he is not

I care very much about "race relations" in America,

we have a terrible history and there is still much to be done.


Obama is not our "get out of jail free card".
 
ntalwar said:


The comparisons I've seen between Obama and MLK have been related to things like speaking style (cadence).
Also, the obstacles both overcame.


Yes,
lynching and not getting picked up by an ignorant cab driver are equivalent.
 
deep said:



Yes,
lynching and not getting picked up by an ignorant cab driver are equivalent.

Who was lynched?

Anyway, those are not obstacles. What about institutionalized discrimination, overcoming perceptions, winning a Senate election, and winning a caucus in a white state - all by the age of 46.
 
seriously,


I like the guy just fine

but I do think this rush to Obama is unwarranted

and very well may come back to haunt the Dems in November


he only bacame a U S Senator in 2005?

He won because the likely GOP candidate was this Ryan guy that made his very popular actress wife Jeri Ryan

do nasty things in public


jeriryan.jpg


It was revealed that, six years previously, Jeri had accused Jack Ryan of asking her to perform sexual acts with him in public, and in adult clubs in New York, New Orleans, and Paris. Jeri Ryan described one as "a bizarre club with cages, whips and other apparatus hanging from the ceiling." Jack Ryan denied these allegations. Although Jeri Ryan refused to comment on the matter during the campaign, the document disclosure led Jack Ryan to withdraw his Republican candidacy for an open United States Senate seat in Illinois (which was eventually won by Barack Obama).
 
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ntalwar said:


Who was lynched?

Anyway, those are not obstacles. What about institutionalized discrimination, overcoming perceptions, winning a Senate election, and winning a caucus in a white state - all by the age of 46.

winning a caucus in a white state???


I don't get this "white state" thing at all


is there a must carry "pass law" in Iowa
for "non-whites" ?

Like there was in apartheid South Africa?
 
deep said:


winning a caucus in a white state???


I don't get this "white state" thing at all


is there a must carry "pass law" in Iowa
for "non-whites" ?

Like there was in apartheid South Africa?

95% of the population of Iowa is white.

Nice attempt at wit and humor though.
 
I made no attempt at humor

my question is serious


how sad it is to think that the first thing that comes to mind for you is skin color???



what do you think the number one rated daytime TV show is
in Iowa?


I consider Colin Powell to be an exceptional person to work in the State Department


I consider Clarence Thomas to be one of the poorest Supreme Court Justices to ever serve


and my opinions are based on how I perceive they do their jobs

they don’t get a pass or a strike from me
because of their race
 
deep said:
I made no attempt at humor
how sad it is to think that the first thing that comes to mind for you is skin color???

...

and my opinions are based on how I perceive they do their jobs

they don’t get a pass or a strike from me
because of their race

12% of the population is African American, but only 1% of Fortune 500 CEOs are - so obviously not everyone thinks like you. There are many other examples - check the jail population.

Or we could be like the French who ignore racial statistics and pretend there is no discrimination, when in fact they have a lot of discrimination.
 
deep said:
seriously,


I like the guy just fine

but I do think this rush to Obama is unwarranted

and very well may come back to haunt the Dems in November


he only bacame a U S Senator in 2005?

I agree with this, although I don't think it will hurt the Democrats in November. I think he would win anyway.
 
Though I generally like Obama, most of his policy stances are fairly mainstream.

I think if either Kucinch or Paul were elected they would be at much more serious risk of being assassinated by the military industrial complex.
 
deep said:
I
I like the fellow just fine

But, I am not disperate to make him something he is not

I care very much about "race relations" in America,

we have a terrible history and there is still much to be done.


Obama is not our "get out of jail free card".

deep :love:
 
Bill Clinton targets media coverage of Obama


(CNN) – On the eve of the New Hampshire primary, former President Bill Clinton criticized the media for not pressing Barack Obama more fully on Iraq, and accused the Illinois senator of shifting his position to reflect changing attitudes on the war.

"It is wrong that Senator Obama got to go through 15 debates trumpeting his superior judgment and how he had been against the war in every year, enumerating the years, and never got asked one time, not once, 'Well, how could you say that when you said in 2004 you didn't know how you would have voted on the resolution? You said in 2004 there was no difference between you and George Bush on the war," Clinton said at a campaign stop in Hanover, New Hampshire.

"And you took that speech you're now running on off your Web site in 2004. And there's no difference in your voting record and Hillary's ever since."

He added, "Give me a break. This whole thing is the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen."

Clinton's wife, New York Sen. Hillary Clinton, is battling Obama for the Democratic presidential nomination.

The former president briefly acknowledged that his wife's senior campaign advisor, Mark Penn, was mistaken to claim that Obama had no bounce out of Iowa after winning the state's caucuses because the poll numbers on the day after were relatively unchanged.

Then he abruptly changed the subject — suggesting that Obama's campaign had employed underhanded tactics.

"What did you think about the Obama thing calling Hillary the senator from Punjab? Did you like that? Or what about the Obama handout that was covered up, the press never reported on, implying that I was a crook. Scouring me — scathing criticism over my financial reports. Ken Starr spent $70 million and indicted innocent people to find out that I wouldn't take a nickel to see the cow jump over the moon.

"So you can take a shot at Mark Penn if you want. It wasn't his best day. He was hurt. He felt badly we didn't do better in Iowa," said Clinton. "But the idea that one of these campaigns is positive and the other is negative when I know the reverse is true — and I have seen it and I have been blistered by it for months — is a little tough to take. Just because of the sanitizing coverage that's in the media doesn't mean the facts aren't out there."

He added, lightheartedly, "Otherwise, I do not have any strong feelings about that subject."

The former president made the remarks as polls showed his wife trailing Obama in this important first-in-the-nation primary state.

Update: Responding to the comments later Tuesday, Obama said the Clinton campaign was "frustrated," and he dismissed the notion the press has gone easier on him.

"Maybe I've been missing something, but it seems like you guys have been reporting on me the entire year," Obama told reporters. "I remember this summer when we were down 20 points, we were getting knocked around pretty good. And I didn't hear the Clinton camp complaining about how terrible the press was."

Fishbowl DC

Journo Love for Obama

NBC's Brian Williams took to MSNBC today at noon and had this to say:

WILLIAMS: I interviewed Lee Cowan, our reporter who covers Obama, while we were out yesterday and posted the interview on the web. Lee says it's hard to stay objective covering this guy. Courageous for Lee to say, to be honest. The e-mail flood started out we caught you guys, we never did trust you. That kind of thing. I think it is a very interesting dynamic. I saw middle-aged women just throw their arms around Barack Obama, kiss him hard on the cheek and say, you know, I'm with you, good luck. And i think he feels it, too.
 
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In what political observers called a shocking display of anger from a former President of the United States, Bill Clinton today keyed the car of Illinois Senator Barack Obama.

Mr. Clinton's attacks on Senator Obama have become more scathing in recent days, but few Democratic insiders expected his rhetorical attacks to turn into outright vandalism.

That is precisely what happened, however, in the parking lot of a Dunkin' Donuts in Nashua, New Hampshire, where Mr. Obama and his aides had stopped for an early morning campaign appearance.

Spotting the Illinois senator's car in the lot, a wild-eyed Mr. Clinton pulled out his key ring and "started twirling it on his finger like a six-shooter," according to one eyewitness.

Saying he was "damned sick and tired" of everything going Mr. Obama's way, the former President dragged his keys across the length of the senator's car, creating a deep gash in the paint job that experts said would cost hundreds of dollars to repair.

As news of Mr. Clinton's attack on Mr. Obama's automobile spread like wildfire across New Hampshire, political insiders branded the former president's move as a tactical mistake that could turn off Democratic voters.

"Keying another candidate's car is really beneath the dignity of a former President of the United States," said Carol M. Foyler, a longtime media advisor to Democratic candidates. "That's the kind of thing you want surrogates to do."

For his part, Mr. Clinton was unrepentant, telling reporters "you ain't seen nothing yet."

"Where does he live?" Mr. Clinton shouted at the press corps. "I'ma go TP that bastard's house."

Andy Borowitz is a comedian and writer whose work appears in The New Yorker and The New York Times, and at his award-winning humor site, BorowitzReport.com.
 
deep said:
It is reasonable to compare Obama to JFK and MLK jr

but only if you want to disregard the life histories and accomplishments of JFK and MLK jr


Not if your comparision has to do with his effect on people, which is the extent of my comparison. This guy is galvanizing people in a similar way to the way that JFK did. Whether he lives up to the enthusiasm people have for him is certainly up for debate. Certainly there are many people who feel that Kennedy did not live up to the hype and was really only an average president. As a president you can argue about how effective or skilled he was but nobody can deny how he captured the imagination of the country. Obama seems to be doing the same thing and that is undeniable.

deep said:
So if Obama is your man primarily because you choose to see him as black and young
and you want to fill his very commendable life and very short list of accomplishments
with images of JFK and MLK jr

Then be my guest

I like the fellow just fine

But, I am not disperate to make him something he is not

I care very much about "race relations" in America,

we have a terrible history and there is still much to be done.


Obama is not our "get out of jail free card".

I wouldn't see Obama as a get out of jail free card by any means.

To be honest, I'm a little uncomfortable with all the Obamamania and I definitely don't want to get lumped into that even though I've been a fan for of his for awhile. It's probably what hardcore U2 fans felt like when the Joshua Tree came out and all of a sudden everyone LOVES U2 and you're thinking "Yeah, well, where were you a year ago?" It's a kind of snobbish resentment, I admitt. :reject:

The flip side is that I'm sure there Obama will have his "Rattle and Hum" moment, i.e. backlash. Certainly his opponents are really turning up the heat, and I think it comes from a naked jealousy. What he has, money can't buy and a campaign strategist can't plan--they can't imitate what he's doing so they HAVE to tear him down, to try to "wake people up" that he might not be "so great." I'm not sure how it will work--if people will buy into the negativity or if they will see it as all the more reason to support Obama as he is about postivity while they are seen as "going negative"
 
He reminds me more of RFK than JFK.

As I said in other posts, he has JFK's former speech writer working for him. Ted Sorenson has to be up there in age doing this stuff.
 
maycocksean [/i][/QUOTE] I agree with you on the Kennedy comparison(s). [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ntalwar said:
What about institutionalized discrimination, overcoming perceptions, winning a Senate election, and winning a caucus in a white state - all by the age of 46.
.......................................................................
Or we could be like the French who ignore racial statistics and pretend there is no discrimination, when in fact they have a lot of discrimination.
I think that's a little harsh--deep was hardly suggesting that racial discrimination doesn't exist here, and I'm inclined to agree with him that defending MLK comparisons by exclaiming about Obama's winning a "white state" (in fact, the more prevalent national trend is for an inverse relationship between a locally larger-than-average black minority and electing black politicians to national office) and Obama's having won a Senate election (in fact, Obama is Illinois' 16th black Congressperson and 2nd black Senator) seems both overdrawn and an odd basis for MLK comparisons specifically. And while I'll grant that wishful thinking can conceivably cut both ways here, I can also understand his finding it somewhat discomfiting that MLK seems to be getting held up as the natural, default comparison for any black man whose path to a distinguished public service career and recognition as a highly gifted speaker unsurprisingly included struggles with institutionalized racial discrimination. That's certainly no insult--one needn't be a King or a Kennedy to justly inspire public admiration and perhaps be seen as a role model by/for some particular demographic, after all--but I do think deep's concerns about not prematurely overloading Obama with expectations and projections and assorted fantasies of national reconciliation that no one could possibly live up to are reasonable ones. To be fair, I realize Obama himself is more invoking MLK/JFK/etc. as symbols of hope and inspiration than suggesting we identify them with him somehow, but in the hyperreactive world of Presidential campaign rhetoric, that can be a risky hand to overplay.
 
Hillary was a Republican when JFK was president and MLK was alive. She supported Goldwater in 1964. She thinks that we should vote for her because she has a uterus. I won't campaign for her if she wins the nomination then I'd hope that Bloomberg enters in the race. I'm a Democrat and a feminist, so that can give you an idea on how much some of us in party would wish she would go away.
 
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