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Old 08-11-2004, 01:21 PM   #1
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Yikes.

This is scary.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/sto...20040810ISL105
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Old 08-11-2004, 02:18 PM   #2
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Quote:
The Washington Times reported ...
Scary story if it's true, but the Washington Times is one step above Drudge, so who knows.
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Old 08-11-2004, 02:25 PM   #3
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I heard this this morning.

Fucking scary.
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Old 08-11-2004, 07:15 PM   #4
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Damn. This is scary.
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Old 08-14-2004, 11:56 AM   #5
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When will this terrorism nighmare end?
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Old 08-15-2004, 08:01 PM   #6
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Originally posted by Sue DeNym
When will this terrorism nighmare end?
Unfortunately we're pretty much stuck with Al-Qaeda. Even if OBL gets busted or whatever, he has capable subordinates who can keep the show going.
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Old 08-16-2004, 07:24 AM   #7
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nukes in thier hands , now that's scarry
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Old 08-16-2004, 07:43 AM   #8
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I agree with that, however I still dont think people are willing to wake up to the ugly fact the real problem lies not with the United States, Israel or "The West" but throughout Islamic Society - it is only natural for societies with such opression and barbarity to use the most violent pieces of their religion. Only when the entire Islamic World can bring Islam out of the 7th Century can we see the end of apocalyptic Islamist terrorism - this unfortunately is the very opposite concept to Islamism which seeks to drag the entire World back into the 7th Century. I am not saying that Islam is an evil religion, I am saying that a religion is only as good (or bad) as the society that practices it; For example the Inquisition was religion being practiced in a most violent and brutal manner by a most violent and brutal society, same may be said about The Crusades and a whole slew of religious crimes in history, this is no different, its not just a case of a "few lone nuts" its a case of having millions of people indoctrinated into hatred and millions more who will let it slide by. Islam would be a great religion when the societies are able to match western nations in terms of Liberty, Democracy and Human Rights, until that happens there can only be death and destruction. We cannot bring about change by reinforcing those who desire the extermination of an entire people (The Jews), if you take a look at Palestinian and Arab media you can see the way that they portray Israelis and Americans, the Infidel becomes sub-human and worthy of death. This is all there to perpetuate the hatred, to reinforce the power structure for the Clerics and Leaders and maintain the wealth where it needs to be - upset that balance, the way the countries are led and you will see a drastic change in terms of a reduction in political violence.

I dont think that people can comprehend the threat that Islamic Terrorism poses to the world. By their very nature the terrorists are extreme and the standard models of detterence and anticipation that made the Cold War a game of calculated risk go out the window, the new paradigm is having groups that have only one goal - destruction. They also have nothing to loose, this threat will persist and it will only grow. Consider it much like Communism until the formation of the Soviet Union, when they topple the right governments the balance of power will shift dramatically and they may well hold the world to ransom.

* I should mention that Indonesia represents a very good Muslim nation, extremism does exist however the relative proportion of support for them isn't there and you have more progressive interperatations (Muhammadiyah is a brilliant example, a large Muslim organization that hold progressive values), its interesting to note however that Indonesia emerged from 50 years of dictatorship (Sukarno and Soharto) and since then the balance has been shifting, it is harder to supress violent Islamism but the question becomes is this principally an Indonesian problem or a global one, this is where the issue of influence and training for global terrorism take effect and the fact that any "War on Terrorism" must resemble a Marshall Plan more than any true war, a way to support countries that can directly threaten Islamism by cutting their support base, giving the people freedom and removing the promise that Islamism holds to so many. If this can be done on a large enough scale we will not only save lives in the streets of Western Cities we will guarantee peace in the Middle East and make serious gains in the quest for world peace.

There is absolutely no reason that Islam is incompatiable with progression, in fact the only way to ensure all our survival is to encourage progression and remove the barriers between societies - this is where globalization (a very, very broad term I know but still apt) can help. I would love to see a totally free middle east where Arabs can elect their own leaders without fear of torture or coercison, where money is spent to build infrastructure rather than bomb belts. It is possible all we need is to plant the seeds of liberty - from there great things shall grow. The alternative would be an Isolationist course, gradually cutting dependance on Arab oil eventually leading to massive instability, many civil wars and serious threat of global annihilation. This is a situation where it is better to go out and face the enemy directly, to sieze the support from beneath their feet and build a great society while they are still spouting hte same old rhetoric, it will ensure humanity can coexist into the future but we will not get there by ignoring brutality in the name of Political Correctness.
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Old 08-16-2004, 04:22 PM   #9
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Why is anyone really afraid? It's the fear mentality that serves as terrorism in the first place.

There's a better chance you'll die in a car crash than getting hurt in a terrorist attack.

And how many "warnings" have there been since September 11 anyway? I have a life to life, I don't need to waste my time worrying.
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Old 08-17-2004, 11:54 AM   #10
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A_Wanderer, the real problem is that none of these societies are ever going to become secular states. There's only one Muslim state that's officially secular, and that's a non-Arabic state, Turkey. (No, the Turks are *not* Arabs). In the other Muslim states, it's built into their political system that the Muslim clergy has alot of political power. They run their countries with Sharia, which is Islamic law. Not all of them observe Sharia equally strictly; in Jordan, for example, women need not be veiled. Ironically, Iraq was a secular state under Saddam, and my guess is that the Iraqi people are eventually going to be run by the Shi'ite power structure, no matter what else happens politically right now. Most likely Sistani is more popular in Iraq than Allawi is.
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Old 08-17-2004, 12:13 PM   #11
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I dont think you understand the scale of what I am talking about, look ahead to a final "victory" (apt in that there is no more enemy) against Islamism, it would be decades in the making and it would require a lot of money and political pressure. Look beyond the short term is the point im trying to get at.

I disagree that Muslim (or more specifically Arab) States cannot succeed as a secular liberal democracies, when you introduce freedom and eductation the masses are less likely to be swayed by religious authority, people do not like to live under despotism and I see Sharia and Islamism as despotic. Look at Jordan, its progressive on the outside but men can still murder their wives, daughters, mothers on the basis that they suspect their "honour" has been tarnished. It is a facade, I understand that Iraq was a secular state under Saddam but you must understand that secularism is one part of the equation - liberty is the other. To have a stable system it must be both, the Soviet Union for instance was a secular state, it was in theory totally Atheist however liberty didnt exist, you had secret police and coercion, this was not right. You must have both liberty and secularism - that is the foundation for a liberal democracy and if one can take root in Iraq over the next few decades then I would be optimistic that Islam can be brought forward.

We are all fucked if we leave the Muslim world in the state its in now, its as simple as that - we try to become isolationist and the worst weapons will get in the wrong hands and UBL will see his judgement day, it would be a bloody apocalypse brought to bear on the world. Something must change and I do believe that securing Iraq and laying the foundations for a democracy with respect for human rights, seperation of church and state is a small step forward to achieving it.

This is a broad operation that will not take 5 years, it will not take 10 it will take at least 50 years to see the real benefits, when you take a look at Iran you see a lot of discontent over the power structure, the true glory of the Islamic Revolution is there to see, political Islam is despotism by another name and it will not be able to exist in a globalized world. If you get education, feedom of speech and thought then such a system cannot exist, we cant stand by and leave the seeds for disaster to grow, we have to see global liberation from opression, disease and poverty. We are all human beings and we all deserve rights, rights are not universal if only the wealthiest people on the planet can have them.
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Old 08-17-2004, 05:32 PM   #12
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The question with education is what the kids are taught in school. Even in secular Turkey, they teach Islamic religious classes in the schools. I don't know whether or not Christian and Jewish children are excused from these classes; they probably are as freedom of religion is guaranteed for both Christians and Jews. In the other Islamic states, the children are taught Islam, and why mosque and state are intertwined in their countries. For example, they have to pay a Koran-mandated poor tax in every country. The only way to really change this is to barge in to every one of these countries, yank the governments out of power, and then change the textbooks in the schools. If you just spread education to make it universal, and it is not universal in any Islamic state (none of them have 100% literacy rates), you'll have the same stuff taught in all of their schools. The situation is complicated by the fact that the most prestigious people in all of these societies are religious scholars/leaders. I've mentioned Sistani in Iraq. There are Islamic big shots in every one of these countries, and they command much respect and downright obedience. These countries are very conservative, in many ways they haven't changed since they were part of the Ottoman Empire. Their political boundaries have changed, and they've built roads to drive cars on, and they have some bigger buildings in the cities, but the mentality as per religion and politics is most likely mostly unchanged. If any of these countries were declared secular states, there would be hell to pay. The people would be very angry and would demand the restoration of Sharia. I honestly don't think these countries will ever become secular states. Ever. They are too conservative. They're always saying "oh no we don't want to be like the Turks, they don't respect religion". If Iraq became a democracy, it will probably have some sort of Sharia, and there will be pressures to make it the second "Shi'ite" state (Iran is the first). To me optimism about Iraq is too much of a leap of faith. Unlike us they have no sense of progress. The concept of progress in ideas doesn't exist.
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