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Old 10-19-2001, 08:45 PM   #1
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Ya Basta! - The United Nations / War and further explanations

Two subjects on this topic :


I - Earlier post about war
II - The United Nations in Afghanistan


I - I have to admit that my writting was kinda rude. I excuse myself to the great principles of objectivism and of politically-correct "journalism". I completely admit that I did generalize a lot and that I have created another little-war on the internet, wich I think is a complete waste of time because I think that those "wa-wars" are made by people taking too personnaly and seriously the writtings on forums on the internet and I feel into that trap. It was a vague brainstorm of sickness of seeing war everywhere, seeing misery while I live in comfort. I fight for something I never, and probably never will, really know. And towards this, rage comes in my soul : I can't change the world alone, my statements are not heard by anyone "big" enough to make something out of it and I think the internet is a good therapy I laugh of this virtual situation, cos it's so annoying and at the same time, so stupid and so therapical. If I offended anyone, that was not my objective. It may sound annoying for some of you, but... that's it. Now that this kinda excuse is done, I will put my thoughts in a better way than I did, without generlizing, I hope, from a Montrealer perspective, away and not-away from New York and Washington.

------------------
«Je suis le dernier homme. Contre tous, je me défendrai... je ne capitulerai pas.»
"I am the last man. Against all, I will defend myself. I shall not capitulate".
" Soy el hombre pasado. Contra todos me defenderé. No capitularé. "
"Ich bin der letzte Mann. Gegen alle verteidige mich ich. Ich kapituliere nicht. "
"Sono l' ultimo uomo. Contro tutti mi difenderò. Non capitulate."

- Eugène Ionesco, "Rhinocéros"
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Old 10-19-2001, 08:59 PM   #2
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The writting that follows is what I really mean. It's long, yes it is. But I love writting and think that I'm a political analyser for Radio-Canada.

A bomb as fallen yesterday, on october I6th, on a depot of the Red Cross, in Kabul, destroying tons of life supplies and clothing. A couple of days before, it was workers of mine clearance of an organization affiliated to the United Nations that were killed by the bombings, and after it was a village destroyed by "intelligent" bombs (more or so intelligents ?). Ya basta!!!

Don't say that my reaction is primitive anti-americanism, that lovely pretext that says nothing in itself, and to do nothing else. And let's "put the cards on the table".

Like everybody, I felt sadness, incomprehension and horror when I saw live on television the odious, barbarian and cruel terrorist attacks, particulary in the World Trade Center case. I felt more connected, still do, to the tragedy of the WTC rather than of the Pentagon, mainly because the people who worked there were civilians (I work as a messenger for a lawers firm, on the side of the CIBC Tower in Montreal. When CNN said that attacks could happen anywhere, the CIBC Tower and the magnificent IBM Tower in front of my building didn't seemed as proud as they were before....). Like many people, I imagined the horror of the people in the World Trade Towers no. I and 2, watching the world from behind, seeing the opposite tower collapsing, seeing people throwing themselves out of the burning offices. I felt something in my stomach like everyone who imagine this. And even today, with the anthrax stuff, when I deliever a box or a letter that isn't well-enveloped, I can't stop thinking about anthrax. Even the secretaries ask me : "Where does this letter comes from ?" "did you checked it ?" etc... Today, the fire alarm in the office rang. Yesterday, the whole Bourse Tower was evacuated. The medias rushed to see the 20 000 people working in this tower being evacuate. The reason : testing the fire alarm system. Medias were thinking of a terrorist alert. Like everywhere, I'm on my nerves.
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Old 10-19-2001, 09:12 PM   #3
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I'm a well-informed person of "only" I9 years-old. I read papers from all around the world, I've got the change to watch television from Canada, United Stated and Europe, as well as programs of Asia and even Arabia (thanks for that no. I4 channel.. montrealers know what I'm talking about). I've read, investigated, studied, like my teachers in my study field and like many friends I have, the Soviet Union's invasion of Czechoslovakia, the coup d'État in Chile, the Cuban revolution of I959, the revolution of I789 in France, studied the History of the United States in my study field (obligatory class), the civil war of Nicaragua, the rising and fall of the Third Reich, the silent genocid of Rwanda, war in Irak, the history of the Soviet Union and of the different civilizations. In 2000 I had the chance to meet a worker of the United Nations. She was working in Irak and she told me about the effects of the embargo on the children, women... off all the normal citizens of Irak, combined with the reing of Saddam Hussein. But I never felt as close as war. Kosovo seemed distant, but Afghanistan seems like my neighboor. Maybe it's because between Kosovo and Afghanistan, I've grown up of 5 000 years.

Yes, Oussama Ben Laden and his fellow supporters are pervert terrorists, reactionnarist fascists who treat the moderate muslisms, women to all the values of the Human Rights in the most horrible way humanity have seen since the Third Reich Concatretion camps and the Japanese detention camps during the second major World War. This is happenening on our planet... OUR planet, our being humans and nature. OUR planet.

We have been told that we must "counter-attack" or "strike-back", stop the fanatics of a warrior God made-up of all pervert pieces, defend ourselves, stop the barbaric invasion, eliminate some liberties. And that's where I don't follow anymore, because I think things are being messed-up all togheter.

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Old 10-19-2001, 09:42 PM   #4
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We are all on the same base though : we must find Bin Laden and his people, judge them and apply appropriate sanctions to them. But - because there's a but (not that but, yo)- why is it not the United Nations who takes "control" or leads this anti-terrorism operation ? Why do we permit the United States to take fully control of this delicate operation that should imply all of Humanity ? If the United Nations received the Nobel Price for Peace, two weeks ago (I think... or last week), it certainly DOES mean something. I'm certainly please that Bush and Powell are starting to think that the UN should take a major part in the after-war. But i think the UN should also take part in the "war" against terrorism. By war, I mean "operation", not necessarly "weaponing". But in East Timor, the United Nations clearly showed it's capabalities in establishing democracy and taking a great leadership. Now, the United Nations should take the leadership of the anti-terrorism operations.

I do not trust Bush, everyone knows that. This right-wing man sent repeatedly people tothe electric chair, even if some of them were mentally sick. This man have support from the right-wing church in the United States, homophibis and oftenly racists. This man stop sending subventions to Non-Governmental Organizations who were helping the women in some Third-World Countries and who helped them getting decent abortion. Before september IIth, he didn't showed great interest in the world affairs, and of course of the Israelo-Palestinian conflict. And to this man now, we hope that humanity will be a greater place ?

We live on a gigantic time-bomb. In front of the atrocities of September IIth, in front of the multiple causes who created this event, wisdom must be our lead and our light. Wisdom orders us to unite every country to find valuable solutions, far from the revenge feelings, wich are very human, but not very wise. That's what the United Nations is all about.

But it's all the opposite that is happening now. If Bin Laden would have been in China or in Pakistan, would the US bomb those countries ? Here, in Canada, the Governments goes in quite the same direction, with lower means of course. It yields under the pressue of the American Government and of the Right-Wing Canadian Politics (i.e.: Canadian Alliance). An anti-terrorist law will soon be applied : every people suspicious of being in a terrorist organization will be arrested and put in jail for 72 hours maximum, then will have to go to court. But abuses of this law could extend to anti-globalization protesters or against autochtones blocking a bridge. I refuse that in the name of legitimate struggle against terrorism to go to such abuses.

The NDP is the only Canadian Party at the Parliament to questionned the American intervention in Afghanistan. What does the Quebecer Bloc waits for to say that they are against war, publicly, while they say, in vague words, that they really are against it ? People abel to go at war should vote to go or not to go, not people under or over the age of going at war. Democracy should prevail, now more than ever.

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Old 10-19-2001, 09:58 PM   #5
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I do not approve blind and angelic pacifism, but I certainly do not approve militarism. I do not accept, in the name of Allah or the occidental civilization or democracy or capitalism, that we lie to me, even if it's for a legitimate cause. Attacks against innocent people IS terrorism, wether it's made by terrorists or by soldiers.

Where we where when thousands of hundreds of innocent civilians were killed ? Did we openly said we were against the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings ? Did we act in Rwanda when the Canadian Army General Dallaire was hopelessly asking for help to the United Nations ? Yes, the United Nations, in wich the Security Council said no to help. Do we still act in Kashmir, while every day at least I0 to 30 people die innocently ? Where were we during the coup d'État in Chile, perpetuated by the CIA against a democratic-elected Socialist Government who was the most perfect form of Social-Democracy ? Who denounced the barbaric Soviet Union oppression and took action in the United Nations against it in a wise spirit ? Who accused Canada to help Suharto in Indonesia ? Where the United Nations where ? Where the "leaders of democracy" where ? Now that the United Nations is changed, where are we asking for help ?

I see solutions against that kind of anti-americanism by Bin Laden and future Bin Ladens :

I - Stop bombing Afghanistan and help them with appropriate human aid. (the actual humanitarian packages consist of peanut butter, jam and a few grains of rice, packed in an american flag with the inscription : from the generous people of america. Afghans don't need small packs of peanut butter. They need oath, water and things of that kind : it's a starving people. Peanut butter is not an appropriate food for them). Under the United Nations leadership.

II - The United Nations should take the leadership of this operation against terrorism, implying social debate, political debate, military debate, etc...

III - End the embargo against Irak. - Leadership of the United Nations.

IV - Retire the US troops from Saudi Arabia.

V - Under the United Nation's leadership, conclude a very very very very very very important deal between Israel and Palestine.

United Nations implies different countries, mentalities, philosophies, culture. All the world would have it's say in it.

We are far from that now.


Hopefully better,

Cheers

------------------
«Je suis le dernier homme. Contre tous, je me défendrai... je ne capitulerai pas.»
"I am the last man. Against all, I will defend myself. I shall not capitulate".
" Soy el hombre pasado. Contra todos me defenderé. No capitularé. "
"Ich bin der letzte Mann. Gegen alle verteidige mich ich. Ich kapituliere nicht. "
"Sono l' ultimo uomo. Contro tutti mi difenderò. Non capitulate."

- Eugène Ionesco, "Rhinocéros"
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Old 10-19-2001, 10:06 PM   #6
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Wanderer : Where is the point in saying that : "He is a separatist, how can we expect to love our country ?"

First of all, I don't hate Canada. If you want to know why I'm an independentist, ask me questions and I will answer them with pleasure in fact. Dosen't mean that you are a separatist that you hate Canada. I don't expect a Independent Quebec to be perfect either.

Starsnstripes : In fact, I love U2 and I had great pleasure in meeting with Bono in Montréal and taking pictured of The Edge. But I have to admit that I haven't listened to a U2 album since a month or something like that. What should I ideologicaly think to be a neat and pure U2 fan or how much U2 albums per time period should I listen to be the best U2 fan ?

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Old 10-20-2001, 02:41 AM   #7
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So let me get this straight...your solution to the terrorism problem is to give the terrorists everything they want. Mighty clever of you. That way in the future terrorists will learn that all they need to do to achieve their goals is to kill a lot of innocent people.
Next time I want something from you I'll shoot your mom in the head to start the negotiations. If that doesn't put you in a bargaining mood nothing will.

MAP

p.s.- you suggest that we prop the Taliban up and support Saddam Hussein but you haven't explained how this will help anyone other than two of the most evil and repressive governments on earth.

p.p.s.- All my life I've been a liberal but it's terrifying how few answers liberals have had lately. They're so busy spitting out slogans they learned in 1969 that they've actually forgotten how to reason.
The United Nations will solve the problem? How? Specifics damnit.
Peace!! Love!! No War!!
What a load of bullshit. They're just words and I'm calling you people out. Let's have some real alternatives please. Your rhetoric is wearing thin and it's embarrassing for me as a liberal to hear you people dither on so.
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Old 10-20-2001, 12:52 PM   #8
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Well, if you feel embarassed it's not my problem, really. I do not particulary apply to the liberal camp either, but I could if we could definite the meanings of being liberal.

You said that what I suggest, and what a lot of people where I live seems to suggest (at least in the papers) is to give everything the terrorists wants. That is completely wrong. The terrorists want "simply" to kill every Americans and then their allies. Simple as that. There's no social aspects for their people, only for power. There is no real tangible religious thing there that really stands up, it's only madness. It's not concessions to terrorists, it's a complete rebuilding of the Western World's, and mainly the US, foreing policies, mainly regarding the military but also the economics, but I'm not a great economist so I'll let that field to people who know economics principles better than I do, wether they're ideological field. If there really is an international (inter-national) problem, then it should be up to the United Nations. That, again, we saw that the United Nations are capable of great leadership, like they did in East Timor. Why don't we give the United Nations the money and logistic they really need, wether it's military, economical, humanitarian, etc ? Yes, my way of resolving the problem is a thousand times as more complicated as the military action we see in Afghanistan and probably will happen in other countries. Yes, the solution I ask for will take more time than the direct military action we see now. I don't say that my solution is not without problems, but in my mind it could be, though longuer, more efficient I believe.

I - Quote : "you suggest that we prop the Taliban up and support Saddam Hussein but you haven't explained how this will help anyone other than two of the most evil and repressive governments on earth."

I never said that. I never said we should prop the Taliban up and support Saddam Hussein. For Irak, I say that the combination of Saddam Hussein and of the embargo is barbaric. It's the people who pay the price for ideas they wouldn't, in my opinion, support. All the people want is to live free and with hapiness. In both sides there, they see madness. On one hand, they see Saddam Hussein that lead them into war and misery and on the other hand, they see the western world using them as a political piece and when Hussein will get away, they clearly know that the same western world will "send them flowers to say they love them", but as in fact they were use as a political piece, in my opinion.

But I approve Powell in his visions of a future Afghanistan, who would be set-up with the help of the United Nations and that every cultural that is part of Afghanistan would get a place in the government (Powell said even moderate-talibans). Afghanistan is a great mosaic of cultures. But the Taliban regime now is, and we really stand up together on this one I hope, the most barbaric and horror regime since the Third Reich, and even, of all time (at least, under Hitler, the Germans could still eat, have some hope and work).

II - Quote : "Peace!! Love!! No War!!
What a load of bullshit. They're just words and I'm calling you people out. Let's have some real alternatives please. Your rhetoric is wearing thin and it's embarrassing for me as a liberal to hear you people dither on so."

I don't know if you completely read the text, or at least you may have skiped parts of it. I wrote that I do not support militarism and that I'M NOT AN ANGELIC PACIFIST. meaning that I don't apply to the caterogy of "peace peace peace peace peace, no war, no war, no war". Again, if you feel embarassed as a liberal, it's not my problem. But why would people not say the same things as in I969 if the hippies missed it all and if the same words could still apply today ? And you ask me for concreta and specific ? Read the text man and what's behind it and between the lines.


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Old 10-20-2001, 02:03 PM   #9
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PEACE...LOVE...NO WAR!


o I'm sorry those words don't mean dick in American!

Get it though your wise ass that killing is wrong! No matter who does it! and for what reason they're doing it for!
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Old 10-20-2001, 07:41 PM   #10
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Don't mean dick to an American huh? They mean a lot to me but only when they're in some sort of context. You can't throw rhetoric out like it's some sort of magical talisman. The words alone DON'T MEAN SHIT. They're just words. We need ideas and you don't have any good ones.

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Old 10-22-2001, 08:46 PM   #11
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Quote from MAP : Don't mean dick to an American huh? They mean a lot to me but only when they're in some sort of context. You can't throw rhetoric out like it's some sort of magical talisman. The words alone DON'T MEAN SHIT. They're just words. We need ideas and you don't have any good ones.
MAP

========

Peace and Love mean real stuff only in some context ? When ? When it does not directly happen to you, like Rwanda or like Kosovo ? Enlighten us on that please, cos the way I see these words you wrote is like "When it happens to me, I approve war. But when it happens to others, I say 'brothers, don't shoot'".

Also, about all that rethorical stuff. I think the war that goes now is rethorical, traditionnal, made with dinosaurs-old techniques. Terrorists would have destroyed the Empire State Building in I935 and the techniques would be based on the same ideas as today, only the technology would be different. By saying that I strongly support an utopic United Nations control and leadership in this war against terrorism (wich is GLOBAL, not only related against the United States, but certainly the biggest terror attack was made against the United States). So, in what I understand, the United Nations would be rethoric and, so would the rest of the world. Maybe the United Nations don't mean a lot to the United States, but it certainly and really does mean a lot, not only to "foreing" countries, but to a lot of people, groups and cultural communities on this planet. Terrorism is a world-wide problem and the only real world-wide organization I could see taking a great leadership on this war against terrorism is the United Nations. Yes, it does mean a complete new way of thinking, yes it does probably means new "powers" to the United Nations, or at least, new meanings. Like I said, a world-wide problem needs wise debates in a world-wide organizations. The war going on now in Afghanistan, the way it is actually done, gives be bitter taste in my mouth. War does not entirely means weapons or traditional military.

So, in your mind, the United Nations leadership isn't a good idea. What do you propose then ?




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Old 10-22-2001, 09:26 PM   #12
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Bonoman :

Thank you for your comments. Yes, I may sound very very very (very very very, etc, etc, etc..), obsessed with the United States, but I think I'm more obsessed with the principles of economy running over such things as culture. The United States are the biggest and the only hyper-power of the world, they're the most visible. But on a lower scale, yeah, I could talk about Canada or Great Britain. And I openly critisize myself, and a part of the anti-globalization people because they focuss (as well as I do) on the United States, while I think it should focus on the principles, not the people (even if people represent principles).

I live in Canada (and the people who say "no, he's a separatist" I answer : yeah, but I still live in Canada and I DON'T HATE IT, got it ?) and you live in Canada. Maybe you are like myself, but I see it as a US-Colony.

About Canada's approval of the United States bombing in Afghanistan, I'm more interested in why the Government approves it, just like any other country who approves or even don't approves it. I can't judge if an action is legitimate or not (I can say my feelings and opinion, but I have no influence in the political wold, if you see what I mean). I think that the Americans are in compete right to feel bitter and want revenge. I think I would as well. But widsom must overcome revenge.

Why is Canada approving the US actions in Afghanistan ? Probably because the United States are Canada's biggest exportation market and does not want to loose it. That's my opinion, could be wrong, could be right, I don't know. but I really think that. Yes, we are an ally of the United States. Yes, we should take precautions and security measures. But Canada as always been very strong in projecting a good image of itself, for it's own people and to the rest of the world (i.e.: other allies). So, we are sending ships, airplanes, material and special anti-terrorist soldiers for two main reasons I guess : to keep the US on our side and not loosing the market (and maybe get some help if we go in recession, who knows) and to keep this good image of a free Canada, figthing for liberty, democracy, etc, etc... It's still politics. We're "brothers" with the United States, but we're so small. We're the small brother and the US is the big, tall brother. And you know that if you have a small brother, he will listen to you (well, not always if I take my bro as an example.. lol )

As for oil companies bought by American ones, this all follows the market laws. It's interesting for a president who think of maybe close his company, or at least, looks at other big companies and that suddenly, a big oil company comes and say "I can keep you afloat. All you have to do is keep your name, but you will be runned by us". That's it. Simple as. As I said in earlier posts, I may sound "against" some countries, but in fact, I'm against some principles. And i did wrote and protest against some other non-US companies, including Canadian ones and British ones. I don't think those people are mad and say "who-oo, let's destroy the environment, let's take over Canada". They are "ignorant". For them, it's profits, it's what they learn in their economic schools, in their High Studies for Economics Universities. No social social conscience, it's making more and more profits and they think it's good. Personaly, I'm not against capitalism, even again, if I say "fuck capitalism". Yes, ok, I don't like the way it is. But I have nothing against a company wich makes profits. But instead of making new richness, why not distribute what we've got now ? What really pisses me off is the consequences for making more and more profits : environmental bashes, social bashes, the reject of the Government as even a fact or at least, as a second step under the World Bank and WTO, child labor, etc.

I work in a building downtown Montreal. I'm a messenger for a lawer firm. Before working there, I thought they (i.e.: people who worked in downtown with ties and all that look) were cunts, mad people. I realise they're not mad, maybe some are, but they're not all cunts. They just don't think about things such as sociality, etc. To them, it's profits. You make some, then it's good. You don't, then it's not good and putting 6, 60, 600, 6 000 or 60 000 workers out of your corporation, or not respecting the environmental use to make profits, if that's what needed, then you should do it.

It's those principles that I can't agree with. Respect environment and sociology in your country, but doing shit in other countries. That's another aspect I can't stand for.

I hope I answered your questions and if you've got others, I will be pleased to answer you and even debate with you on certain things.


cheers

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Old 10-23-2001, 11:08 PM   #13
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........ popup...


cheers

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Old 10-24-2001, 10:29 PM   #14
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I'm I so right on this to have no one to debate with ? Or what ????


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Old 10-24-2001, 10:48 PM   #15
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Isn't it obvious?
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