Wwfymd?

[MrsSpringsteen]

There's something that happened last week that's been bothering me, I thought I'd get the opinions of the fine people here.

I was on the subway on the way home from the baseball game and these drunk college boys-and I will call them boys because they behaved just like boys (not even boys, because that insults and degrades kids)-were there. One in particular was saying these really immature and vile things, I won't and can't repeat them here. Some referred to homosexuality - not in a general way but in an extremely immature and crude personal way. They were also talking in a very crude way about body parts. When I say talking - not talking, they were yelling.

What's really been bothering me more than anything is the fact that I didn't say anything to them for their offensive rudeness. I did say out loud, but not loud enough-shut up you obnoxious a**hole. I'm disgusted w/ myself that I didn't confront the guy (he was standing right near me). But honestly I was afraid, being a female alone (well other than the other people on the train). I had no idea what stop they were getting off at. And dealing w/ a drunk is scary. Nobody else on the train said anything, including the older men who were there-I kept hoping at least one of them would say something like "keep quiet, you're offensive, there are kids on this train" or whatever. One guy who was 20 something told the guy to shut up, but I don't think he heard him, and the guy got off at the next stop.

Shouldn't I have spoken up, in spite of my fear? I think I definitely should have, and I'm ashamed of myself. At what point should you forget about your fears? We shouldn't just excuse it because they're drunk or whatever. And why are people afraid to stand up to people like that, and tell them to shut up and stop being such ignorant disgusting excuses for human beings? Doesn't silence of others implicitly condone this behavior?

I feel like apologizing to all gay people for the behavior of scum like that, I really do. I don't want this thread to become some other discussion of homosexuality, but I do have to wonder-if they had been making inferences about African Americans, Jewish people, or any other group in such an offensive way, would people be silent about that too?

Maybe another issue is why do some males of that age group behave the way they do? Shouldn't they be more mature than that?

 

[JessicaAnn]

I am not sure what kind of subway it was? Was there a security guard on board or any other transit official you could have complained to?

Sounds cliche, but they probably joke about homosexuality because they are not secure in their own sexuality.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

No there weren't any officers that I could see, I would assume they would have done something if they were on board.

I think maybe they make comments like that because they think it's acceptable, whereas anything else they might open their idiotic mouths about wouldn't be. Chances are they might be racist and sexist too though

 

[MadelynIris]

I've gotten into a few fights in my life (not proud of it). But they were all with drunk people in public places in exactly the scenario you describe.

I politely ask them to quite down, or be more considerate of their surroundings, they escalate it, and I in turn have to kick their ass. The fights are usually short, with me demanding an apology whilst having my knee in their back.

Every time, every single time.

So, that's my experience. Their judgement is screwed up, and they can't control themselves.

So, be prepared to fight.

 

[BAW]

Personally, I think you did the right thing. A lone woman confronting a group of drunk guys probably isn't the smartest thing to do. I would have been just as disgusted but alcohol and a group mentality make people act like idiots and confronting them in that situation might have caused them to turn their harrasment on you.

 

[BostonAnne]

I agree with BAW. It wouldn't have been wise for a lone guy to confront them either.

If they were endangering someone I would have seeked help.

 

[nbcrusader]

Sadly, given society's laissez faire attitude toward personal behavior, can you really expect anyone to challenge his or her behavior (unless, like MadelynIris, you can beat the crap out of them)?

Take a look at some other FYM threads. Bono uses the "F-word" and it's shrugged off as "just another word". Often questioning standards of behavior is considered "judgmental".

I can't change them, but I will make sure my own children don't engage in such behavior.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Bono uses the "F-word" and it's shrugged off as "just another word".

The context in which the word was used had something to do with some people's views on that, too, though.

Anywho, I think it absolutely sucks that those guys were saying that stuff, too. When in public places, you'll hear things from time to time that you won't like. I do agree with BAW's statement that confronting them could've been dangerous

You did say they were drunk, though-sometimes people say things while drunk that they normally wouldn't say otherwise, so there is that to consider, too.

Angela

 

[80sU2isBest]

You did the right thing by not confronting them.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Have any of you ever seen the movie "THe Incident", from the late 60s, with Martin Sheen and Beau Bridges? It's very good, and deals with 2 punks that terrorize people aboard a train.

 

[financeguy]

As MadelynIris said, the kind of behaviour described is invariably designed to provoke a reaction, and therefore conflict or a scrap whether verbal or otherwise, so you did the right thing in keeping schtum.

One incident I can recall that has some parallels. I was on a train with friends in England a few years back. We had been to the horse races and the train was packed with racegoers. It so happened that our carriage had 2 or 3 black people in it - not racegoers, just ordinary commuters. Anyway this guy in the carriage starts directing racial abuse at the black people, along the lines of "So, why don't you go home where you belong", etc. He wasn't a kid, probably in his thirties actually.

The same guy had been handing out BNP (a racist political party in England) leaflets at the train station earlier. Well, anyway no-one said a word or responded and eventually he just shut up. Then another white guy who had over-heard the insults goes over and sits down beside him and the two of them engage in discussion on how immigration was getting out of hand, etc. Marvellous.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I did the right thing for myself, but the wrong thing in general I think

I know what you mean nbc, but Bono using the f word hardly compares to what I heard

 

[nbcrusader]

I wonder what these "boys" watch on television?

 

[Irvine511]

I've gotten into a few fights in my life (not proud of it). But they were all with drunk people in public places in exactly the scenario you describe.

I politely ask them to quite down, or be more considerate of their surroundings, they escalate it, and I in turn have to kick their ass. The fights are usually short, with me demanding an apology whilst having my knee in their back.

Every time, every single time.

So, that's my experience. Their judgement is screwed up, and they can't control themselves.

So, be prepared to fight.

why i appreciate the sentiments behind this, i think it's exactly the wrong thing to do, and probably what these drunken idiots were hoping for -- and they were in a group, so i'm doubtful that any single person could have taken them all on. further, there's a kind of macho bravado that is much more part of the problem than the solution.

on a subway car, late at night, dealing with drunken young men -- sadly, the best thing to do, in the absence of a police officer, is to do nothing if all you were hearing was verbal slurs. you don't know if they're armed, or what they're capable of. quite simply, Mrs. S, your safety comes first, and getting into a "shut up!" "no, you shut up!" screaming match is going to make the ride more unpleasant.

 

[Irvine511]

I wonder what these "boys" watch on television?

well ... okay, but that is how people spoke back then. once in a while, i do think HBO acts like a 9 year old who's just learned that he can swear out of earshot of his parents and won't get in trouble. at the same time, the language on Deadwood or The Sopranos is very accurate, and authentic, and it is R-rated television that people make the choice to pay for, and these shows are of immeasurably higher quality than the stuff on basic cable and the networks. with art comes some discomfort and offense.

these kids probably wouldn't have the attention span to sit through any of those shows, anyway.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I would just have to think that the things this guy was saying come from a place far deeper than f words on TV shows. Of course I didn't get into a discussion w/ him about it..

Oddly enough he did apologize to me for having his butt in my face because the train was so packed and called me a lady. How gentlemanly of him

 

[verte76]

You did the right thing by not confronting them.

I agree. That's exactly what I would have done. You can't manage a bunch of drunk idiots, it's better not to try.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I admittedly fear drunks, and would not take the risk of confronting them under any circumstances unless someone's life was at stake. I've tried reasoning with sober heartless dimwits before, and I don't believe I've been very successful at it.

 

[BonosSaint]

You weigh the risk against the benefit. The chances are almost nil that you were going to change their minds. Sometimes the best thing to do is discreetly catch another rider's glance and roll your eyes, because I am sure your fellow travelers (no communist jokes here) are thinking your homophobes are assholes too. There are other ways you can let the other riders know you disapprove without endangering yourself. You should only feel guilt if you could have changed an outcome.

 

[sharky]

I've been in the subway in NYC and have heard similar things. I say keep your mouth shut. Any normal person knows it's wrong and if you know it's wrong and live your life in a way that others can use as a model to live their lives, i.e. teaching kids that words like that are wrong, then you're fine.

Maybe I've been living in NYC for too long, but despite what some may think, New Yorkers are very passive in situations like that. You never know what someone is caring or how far it could escalate.

 

[MadelynIris]

Irvine,

I defended every blow with a block, I did not strike back - then simply wrestled them to the ground.

Well, one guy I wrestled to the ground by his neck. I guess that was a little overboard. But, in all cases, I like to use the terms: control and containment.

I'm not an agressive person.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Oohh, tough guy!

Put up your dukes! Put 'em up!

 

[Angela Harlem]

Mrs Sprinsgteen, you and every other person who said nothing did the right thing, not only because of the danger you could have found yourself in, but because a loud voice with a quiet audience reverberates. Their actions and words did what you could never have done, and that is paint them for exactly what they are - offensive revolting oafs.

he who laughs last, laughs loudest

 

[indra]

I agree. Sometimes the very best response is absolutely nothing and let the fools show themselves to be the dimwits they really are. Do you really think you would get through to drunks anyway? The time to speak out is at genteel gatherings when the neatly dressed, respectable people are spouting the same vitriol.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I agree. Sometimes the very best response is absolutely nothing and let the fools show themselves to be the dimwits they really are.

. Precisely.

Angela

 

[AvsGirl41]

I know how you feel, Mrs. Springsteen. It's so frustrating because people go around behaving like that because no one stops them--but it's downright dangerous and ineffective to try.

I had a (somewhat) similar experience on a Denver train. It was *packed*, Japan style, but these two girls decided to push on. They were pretty suspect anyway, and they just kept trying to shove their way to the spot *they* wanted. As they are shoving past me, I said "Where do you think you're going to go, exactly?"

The girl turned to me and said "Who are you talking to?"
"YOU. I'm talking to you. Don't you see how crowded the train is, exactly where do you think you're going??" She then launched into verbal abuse and threats--how it wasn't my train and who did I think I was, f-ing b-tch, what would happen if I didn't let her by. I can't remember what I replied, but she eventually got her way. And then proceeded to yell, all the way, about what she was going to do "to that white b*itch" once we got off the train.

Not one person said anything, they just glared at *me* for causing the scene and clutched their bags and briefcases tighter. It made me even angrier than the initial incident. Not one person told her to back off, or chill out, or anything. One girl rolled her eyes in sympathy with me. I don't even think if she had attacked me, anyone would have come to my defense. Of course, the well fed security guards were absent.

It's a pretty sad world we live in, that's all I can say.

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine,

I defended every blow with a block, I did not strike back - then simply wrestled them to the ground.

Well, one guy I wrestled to the ground by his neck. I guess that was a little overboard. But, in all cases, I like to use the terms: control and containment.

I'm not an agressive person.

i still think it's bad advice, for two reasons: 1) the people you are trying to control and contain could be armed, could have a knife, a broken beer bottle, and not everyone (not even you) is capable of controling and containing everyone, and 2) fighting and aggression are never good ways to solve a problem.

you might not be aggressive, but you do seem proud of putting your knee in some idiot's back.

they may well have deserved it, but i still can't see how that was the best response to the sitaution.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I agree AvsGirl, it is a pretty sad world

And I've never been able to fight a guy, though I have certainly fantasized about doing so on more than one occasion (in the angry fantasy sense, not in any other sense)

I'm a non-violent person, but ignorant loud creeps spewing homophobic insults really tick me off. I did have to wonder if this was the same type of guy who would beat up a gay man just because he's gay

 

[Irvine511]

I'm a non-violent person, but ignorant loud creeps spewing homophobic insults really tick me off. I did have to wonder if this was the same type of guy who would beat up a gay man just because he's gay

possibly, but don't worry -- most gay men spend lots of time at the gym and could probably kick this dude's ass

not that i'm recommending that.

 

[MadelynIris]

you might not be aggressive, but you do seem proud of putting your knee in some idiot's back.

they may well have deserved it, but i still can't see how that was the best response to the sitaution.

Right - but now I question you on this:

Do you believe on principle, that any kind of physical confrontation is always wrong?

Is there any situation where it is called for?