Wtf is going on in Israel today???????

[ladywithspinninghead]

Or rather the occupied territories - sorry....

I just don't get it - someone please explain this to me.....

The suicide attacks in Israel are horrendous, that's for sure - no one would argue otherwise, I'm sure....

but is the Israeli response to the suicide attacks not only disproportionate but are they even logical???????????
The U.S. administration (I've lost total respect for them this morning) is practically justifying Israeli attacks on Arafat's home/headquarters/office in Ramallah today as "defending themselves". What the &#$&#$????

Some crazed, fanatical attackers in Palestine are blowing themselves up in Israel and the way to correct this is to destroy the headquarters of that "country" ?!?! (for lack of a better word)

That's absolutely ridiculous - Arafat himself isn't sending in these troops! It's not like his army/police are behind the attacks in Israel. There will always be fanatics and one administration can't be held responsible for these groups actions!
Isn't that tantamount to attacking Whitehall because Richard Reid is British?!?!

Now, someone correct me if I'm wrong.....that's why I'm posting this - I don't really believe that Arafat has inside knowledge of these attacks prior to their occurring so attacking him just seems illogical - it won't accomplish anything. It just seems like Israel wants to (further) humiliate Arafat and his people by flexing its muscles.....this is so counterproductive, it's not funny. It's this Palestinian humiliation which leads one to the point where they don't see the point in living anymore...I'm so angry right now, I can't even think straight...sorry if this post was convoluted - my thoughts are all over the place. I'm absolutely seething with rage right now, seeing those photos on CNN!!

Gawd, that Sharon is a bastard...he's now deemed Arafat an "enemy" and Christianne Amanpour said that when he states comments like that, it basically gives the Israeli army a license to kill.

God, they better not harm him......

[This message has been edited by ladywithspinninghead (edited 03-29-2002).]

[This message has been edited by ladywithspinninghead (edited 03-29-2002).]

 

[Lilly]

Ok, I stayed up 'till the wee hours of the morning watching MSNBC because I'm on 2 hours' time difference. So here's what I got:

-Last night Yasser Arafat's compound was being attacked with gunfire and tanks and there was a fire in there, while Arafat was there.

-Sharon deemed Arafat an 'enemy'. I'm not exactly sure what that does since it's pretty obvious they didn't get along in the first place, but I suppose officialy naming it changes everything.

-Last week sometime it was discovered that Arafat was paying the Palestinian groups that have been terrorizing Isrealis, though he has been publicly chastising them.

-Apparently Arafat was really close to being killed. Sharon maintains that this was all in retaliation for the 26 Isreali deaths that happened last week.

And that's all I really remember.

------------------
I will not expose the ignorance of the faculty.

 

[ladywithspinninghead]

Originally posted by Lilly:
-. -Last week sometime it was discovered that Arafat was paying the Palestinian groups that have been terrorizing Isrealis, though he has been publicly chastising them.

Well, if that's true, then that would change absolutely everything. I do have a hard time believing this, though. Arafat is smart enough to know that Israel will not grant them their state whilst suicide attacks are occurring....furthermore, if there was any credibility to this, I'm sure it would have been more pronounced in the media and it's the first I hear!

Thanks for your input Lilly!

 

[*Ally*]

i'm not really clear on this entire situation, ladyw/spinninghead, but i think that some people (ie, the israelis) are accusing arafat of knowing a lot more about the terrorist attacks than he claims.... apparently, they say that he might be in on the whole thing.

it's a horrible situation over there. there's no solution in sight.... *sigh*

 

[MissZooropa]

Just a thought, no answer or anything. Just a reflection I made the other day.
With all these attacks and suicides and "general" murdering in Israel nowadays, and over the years, should somewhere put an end to it all because there won't be any persons left that want to fight. The rate of died people must nowadays be way higher then the number of birth. At least it feels like it.

This is't meant to take the seriousness out of the subject, just a reflection.

 

[ladywithspinninghead]

Thanks for all your input...interesting thought Miss Zooropa.

That's the thing Ally that I'm curious to know. Maybe I'm naive or something but I always thought that Arafat and his "people" were a distinct outfit from those perpetrating the attacks. Maybe the line is blurred after all....but then again, maybe that's what the Israeli government wants us to think in order to justify their own incursions and attacks...

 

[*Ally*]

i don't know enough about the situation over there to really understand how much involvement arafat has... i don't know if *anyone* really knows! it's just so tragic that so many innocent lives are taken every day... (both palestinian and israeli.)

yes, interesting thought, miss zooropa. *sigh*

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

That's the thing Ally that I'm curious to know. Maybe I'm naive or something but I always thought that Arafat and his "people" were a distinct outfit from those perpetrating the attacks. Maybe the line is blurred after all....but then again, maybe that's what the Israeli government wants us to think in order to justify their own incursions and attacks...

I do know that in the past Arafat was not only linked to terrorist activity, but even actually helped form Hamas.



[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 03-29-2002).]

 

[ladywithspinninghead]

Yeah, I'm well aware of Arafat's past dealing with the "terrorist" groups but in all reality, would the U.N., E.U. and not least the United States and Israel be willing to officially recognize Arafat (as they did in the 90's) if he was still known to have strong ties to terrorist groups?!?! I think not....

Until someone convinces me otherwise (and I ain't gonna get it from the biaised media), I'll continue to believe that Sharon's activities are not only humiliation and intimidation tactics but are also used to undermine Arafat's authority.

It remains to be seen as well if the current attacks on Ramallah do also serve the purpose of killing/harming Arafat...



[This message has been edited by ladywithspinninghead (edited 03-29-2002).]

 

[chain]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

I do not know .....

80s, You are right, here in the states we do not get complete coverage of Middle East events. Europeans are more sympathetic to Arafat and the Palestinians than most Americans and our government. We react to reported atrocities, but do we get all the information to clearly label one side right and the other wrong? I don?t think so.


chain




[This message has been edited by chain (edited 03-29-2002).]

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

Interesting? It's sick......absolutely sick....

If something happens to Arafat, things will spiral more out of control than they are now....It will be anarchic over there! Who the hell will then have the credibility and the legitimacy to reign in the terrorists or at least to ask they cease their activities....

Jaysus H...how could they have elected a man (Sharon) responsible for the murder of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in the camps back in '82....

I'd love to see him sharing a cell with Mr Milosevic at the Hague...

First of all.. Arafat IS a TERRORIST.. I can't seem to find the article, but he does have inside knowledge on these attacks, and even sets some of the orders.. There was just a recent article linking him with Iran in these issues..

Arafat has no desire for any peace or a Palestinian State.. He could have had practically everything he wanted and more from Israel at the end of Clinton's administration in those legacy seeking meetings. The fact that he denied what would be comparative to you or I denying a 1,000,000 dollar winning lottery ticket.. shows that he has no interest in peace.

I think it's sick that people sit here and chastise Israel for retaliating for a suicide attack killing 23 people and injuring 130 during passover.. When the truly sick actions are the people lining up to walk to their deaths.

I read people saying 'Oh they better not Harm Arafat'.. like he's some important figure, Yes maybe in the fact that he orders suicide bombers.. but to think that he can control these people is foolish and blind.. If Arafat were to die, someone from Hamas or another terrorist organization would rise up and be the 'spokesperson' of this band of people.. Arafat has no real 'tangible' authority... Hence there is really nothing to undermine.

Just an addendum in the middle of this post.. the Palestinians are a band of people who produce nothing, they have no commercial value, no 'industrial' practices.. They produce nothing, They are just there.. Ok.. Back to the post.

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if someone from one of teh palestinian terrorist groups kills Arafat hoping Israel is to be blamed and then rises up to the 'leading position'.

80's, Yah, I was a big fan of Rabin, however, I'm not so against Sharon.. The Consensus of the people in Israel is for a person in authority FURTHER to the Right than Sharon.. Yah.. enjoy that little tidbit.. Just Imagine.. But honestly, You can't blame Israel.. These people are not interested in peace (palestinians), don't fool yourself thinking they are.. I'm afraid there only will be peace (In accordance with the EIB), when one side is eliminated.

When you sound so protective of Arafat, Just remember you are cuddling up to a Terrorist.. To a 'Bin Laden'..

L.Unplugged



[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 03-29-2002).]

 

[ladywithspinninghead]

Yeah, interesting but as aforementioned if the Western governments really thought Arafat was still a "terrorist", I hardly think they would have accorded him official recognition and have been willing to deal with him as they have done....

Furthermore, I have been reading up on this today and I have been watching the news (albeit from a biaised american media) and something I learned was pretty interesting. There is a sort of "civil war" going on amongst Palestinians and there is the danger that if Arafat was to prosecute all those factions responsible for the suicide attacks, he'd run the risk of being toppled and replaced by extremist militants. It is indeed in the U.S' and Israel's best interest (not to say the world, but they don't need convincing) to have Arafat remain in power.

Moreover, Arafat does indeed have authority amongst Palestinians. And when he is being portrayed as a "victim" as he was today, his popularity only surges - not only amongst Palestinians but amongst the Arab world.
Sharon is only doing the guy a favour, really.

 

[ramblin rose]

Originally posted by Lemonite:
Just an addendum in the middle of this post.. the Palestinians are a band of people who produce nothing, they have no commercial value, no 'industrial' practices.. They produce nothing, They are just there.. Ok.. Back to the post.

What does this mean?

 

[ladywithspinninghead]

That's the mandatory controversial, provocatirve part of Lemonite's post...just ignore it...he's out to shock...

 

[Lilly]

Originally posted by STING2:
What happened two nights ago is sick!

Sorry, I've been disconnected for a week, what exactly did happen?

 

[ladywithspinninghead]

By the way, it seems like the U.S. is more one-sided today than in previous weeks/months because they have a lot less to gain now that Cheney was unable to secure Arab backing for an attack against Iraq. It's too bad their more balanced support in recent months didn't stem from a genuine desire to see peace in the region instead of stemming from an ulterior motive...


"A friend in need is a friend indeed"

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

Yeah, interesting but as aforementioned if the Western governments really thought Arafat was still a "terrorist", I hardly think they would have accorded him official recognition and have been willing to deal with him as they have done....

Furthermore, I have been reading up on this today and I have been watching the news (albeit from a biaised american media) and something I learned was pretty interesting. There is a sort of "civil war" going on amongst Palestinians and there is the danger that if Arafat was to prosecute all those factions responsible for the suicide attacks, he'd run the risk of being toppled and replaced by extremist militants. It is indeed in the U.S' and Israel's best interest (not to say the world, but they don't need convincing) to have Arafat remain in power.

Moreover, Arafat does indeed have authority amongst Palestinians. And when he is being portrayed as a "victim" as he was today, his popularity only surges - not only amongst Palestinians but amongst the Arab world.
Sharon is only doing the guy a favour, really.

Just out of curiosity?.. Did Cheney visit with Arafat in his middle eastern trip to visit with all the Arab Leaders?.. I don't quite think that he is recognized as a man in 'authority' at all. And who are you saying has 'dealt' with Arafat?.. I don't quite think our administration (I'll have to go check the records).. Clinton??.. He was just looking for a legacy.. I think that any 'recognition' of Arafat as a 'leader' just goes along with what you were saying and what I was trying to somewhat revise.. That There isn't really anyone else to be at least a 'figurehead'.. Or a scapegoat however you wish to put it.

Well said on the 'civil war' part.. Arafat is truly in danger.. I don't quite think that pictures of him 'crunching under a desk' avoiding the shelling makes him more of a hero... In fact, I dont' think that his claims of becoming a 'martyr', would even come true.. It's the terrorist groups that are running this place.. With Arafat at the 'figurehead' position, the responsibility goes firstly through him then to Hamas et al.. They love it... Buut.. Arafat is definitely in danger now.. Like I wrote above, I wouldn't be surprised if he's killed.. and somewhere under teh table and on the streets...the word spreads about who killed him.. (We would never hear it) And this guy/group would rise to prominence.. And Yes, it would become Apparent Anarchy as opposed to teh 'Hidden Anarchy' it is now.. That's why they haven't killed Arafat now.. As much as Sharon would like..

God Bless America,
L.Unplugged

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

By the way, it seems like the U.S. is more one-sided today than in previous weeks/months because they have a lot less to gain now that Cheney was unable to secure Arab backing for an attack against Iraq. It's too bad their more balanced support in recent months didn't stem from a genuine desire to see peace in the region instead of stemming from an ulterior motive...

I wouldn't be so sure that they didn't gain support.. What I heard in the media.. which is far from what went on in private is that the Arab Countries want to see some sort of peace agreement or peaceful setting in Israel before they really give any consideration to an Iraq assault... Which by the way will come... Also, Didn't Israel Agree to talking about peace until the Palestinians started the Suicide Bombings again.. Do you not expect Israel to Retaliate?.. Apparently not..

I know it is this unending cycle, but Israel would'nt keep sending Apaches and F-16's to blow up Offices in Gaza et al if the Suicide Bombings stopped. It's up to this leader of the PLO you refer to.. If he has so much power.

L.Unplugged

 

[STING2]

Its to bad the Arab countries decided to cosy up to Iraq at the Arab summit and not support the USA. The biggest threat to peace in the region is Saddam Hussain and the Arab countries are stupid to ignore it and are obsessed with the mess they created with by not accepting the UN resolution that called for a Jewish state and a Palestinian state back in 1948 and instead attacked Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973.
Its about time the Arabs and Arafat sat down and worked to do what the USA suggest. Of course, Arafat is probably not a person that can get anything done.

 

[STING2]

By the way, the fact that we have dealed with Arafat does not mean the US government doesn't think he might be a Terrorist with bad motives. We dealed with Milisovic at the end of 1995 when the Bosnian war came to an end.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Lemonite:
I wouldn't be so sure that they didn't gain support.. What I heard in the media.. which is far from what went on in private is that the Arab Countries want to see some sort of peace agreement or peaceful setting in Israel before they really give any consideration to an Iraq assault... Which by the way will come... Also, Didn't Israel Agree to talking about peace until the Palestinians started the Suicide Bombings again.. Do you not expect Israel to Retaliate?.. Apparently not..
I know it is this unending cycle, but Israel would'nt keep sending Apaches and F-16's to blow up Offices in Gaza et al if the Suicide Bombings stopped. It's up to this leader of the PLO you refer to.. If he has so much power.
L.Unplugged

You're right, lemonite. People make a dangerous mistake when they underestimate the levels to which Arafat will stoop to destroy Israel.

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by STING2:
Its to bad the Arab countries decided to cosy up to Iraq at the Arab summit and not support the USA.

Yah... I was disgusted by the Saudi Leaders Hugging and Kissing the Representative from Iraq that came out a day or so ago.

L.Unplugged

 

[ladywithspinninghead]

Lemonite,

You're saying Arafat is obviously just a figurehead because he hasn't been able to round up the terrorists???
Draw a parallel then - what would that say about the U.S. administration if they can't even capture Bin Laden or most leading Al-Quaeda fugitives...


And to Sting - you really think in this post Sept. 11th world, the U.S. would be willing to deal with someone they really believed was a terrorist? Je ne pense pas.


By the way people, I'd like to know what proof you have that Arafat is still associated with terrorists today. All of you inclined to think so are Americans (I think) and I'm just wondering what your sources are...Interesting how non-Americans aren't so quick to judge Arafat as such....

 

[anitram]

Originally posted by STING2:
We dealed with Milisovic at the end of 1995 when the Bosnian war came to an end.

Yeah, then he went about persecuting the Albanains in Kosovo. This man was responsible for most of the violence in the Balkans. Eventually, when the West got fed up with dealing with the lying lunatic, they went after him, and he's in the Hague. They never should have had any business with him in the first place. I think it's really offensive to those who died in the Balkans (and I know plenty, children, women, etc.) to think that Milosevic was a peacemaker. He was an opportunist, and only spoke of peace when he no longer thought he could win the war.

 

[mug222]

Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

That's the mandatory controversial, provocatirve part of Lemonite's post...just ignore it...he's out to shock...

Yep! Isn't it great how he undermines any actual point he may have by adding something as nonsensical and sensationalistic as that tripe? It's wonderful how he takes care of those who disagree with him by deflating his own argument so they don't have to.

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

Lemonite,

You're saying Arafat is obviously just a figurehead because he hasn't been able to round up the terrorists???
Draw a parallel then - what would that say about the U.S. administration if they can't even capture Bin Laden or most leading Al-Quaeda fugitives...

They are not related. No parallel.

But I will indulge you, the difference is that Arafat is making NO effort to try and round up any terrorists.. In fact (An If I get the time I'll round up that article) Arafat is sending orders for more Suicide Bombs.


God Bless America
L.Unplugged

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by mug222:
Yep! Isn't it great how he undermines any actual point he may have by adding something as nonsensical and sensationalistic as that tripe?

Ah.. Welcome Back, The Creative mind who Manifested the Eloquently Spoken 'Dumb Fuck'. I have been awaiting your return.

I included the above 'ripped' statement just as a little point, Just to kind of take in and digest, to keep in mind that the Palestines aren't some sort of 'government' or 'country', because it is true, They have no industry, they have no exported products. Do with it what you may.. That's all. It's nice to see that just because it is disagreed with that it is called 'tripe'. Mug I think we all know where you are coming from. But it's good to hear from you.. now if you will, allow Lady and I to continue our discussion.

God Bless America,
L.Unplugged

 

[CdnBliss]

The point is not necessarily what Arafat IS doing and WHO he's doing it with but perhaps more of what he's NOT doing. Isreal has been calling on Arafat for almost 2 years now to reign in on the violence. What it comes down to is 'you're either with us or against us' which I don't think is a bad mindset to have. Isreal is fed up and feel they need to take action. Since 9/11 the focus to combat terrorism has increased drastically...for obvious reasons. And still Arafat sits on his ass and does nothing to help with the peace process.
Picture a child...your child....who runs in and out of the house...slamming the screen door incessantly and no matter how many times you ask him to stop he either thinks it's funny or just doesn't listen. What you do when you can't take it anymore, whether it's 'time out' or a smack on the ass, is up to you but there is a breaking point. Isreal has reached that point and I personally don't blame them. Of course I have hoped and will always hope for a peaceful solution but as the saying goes: Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
The Isrealis have no intentions of harming Arafat. They have him cornered and the power to do it......they would have done it by now.
They have also taken into custody over 65 people believed to be involved in terroist activity as a result of taking over Arafats compound.
Amen.

 

[mug222]

Originally posted by Lemonite:
now if you will, allow Lady and I to continue our discussion.

No. When you characterize an entire "band of people" as those who "produce nothing" and "are just there...", I think I am allowed to take offense, as everyone should. It's just pure racist bilge and it bothers me: Yes, Palestine has unfortunate geographical shortcomings that cause the region to be less developed than our own, but 1) That is not a result of lesser peoples, as you seem to imply, and 2) It is simply a gross generalization to imply that the entire race of Palestinians "produce nothing." I have worked with enough brilliant Palestinian scientists and economists (who, incidentally, also want peace at any cost) to know that much. These Palestinians have produced more than you ever will.

N.B. Ladywiththespinninghead, you are a much larger person than I to be able to resist smacking that lob of his. I salute you

[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 03-29-2002).]

 

[ramblin rose]

Originally posted by mug222:
When you characterize an entire "band of people" as those who "produce nothing" and "are just there...", I think I am allowed to take offense, as everyone should.

That comment was very disturbing to me also.