Wtf is going on in Israel today??????? - Page 8 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-31-2002, 06:50 PM   #106
I'm a chauvinist leprechaun
 
Lemonite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Notre Dame, IN, 46556
Posts: 1,072
Local Time: 05:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nintendan:

Let me ask Lemonite several questions.
You say you never said that you hated Palestinians. Ok. Now I'm asking you;

Do you like Palestinians?
Do you think the world would be a better place without them?

Anitram.. Point Understood.. I realized at the time it made no difference to the current Thread.. However that is why I prefaced it with an 'Addendum'.. For (Like I wrote) Wherever it may apply.. In everyday life (Which does occur outside of this forum), A bit of trivia for maybe a debate somewheres down the line.. I'm not the first one to post 'Irrelevant Thread Information' in a post..

Ok.. To 'Nintendan's Questions..I will answer these Regardless of the fact that they do not need to be answered on account of my above 'Many Times Referenced Quote' as I was never referring to 'Human Value'.. But Still.. I will indulge you this.
lemme scroll up really quickly.....

Do I like Palestinians?... As I wrote above.. Which I'm sure you read, but may have forgotten.. I have no feeling either way.. 'Ambivalence?'.. is that the word... I don't like them nor do I hate them.. I acknowledge them, just as I acknowledge Somali's or Swedes.. I know none personally, I have not visited the country.. So I don't have any 'personal' Love/Hate Feelings either way.

However.. If you were to ask me do I agree with their methods and practices in relation to the Peace Process.. That would be a different story..

Do I think the world would be a better place without Them?.. As a Whole Human Group.. Of Course Not, however I think the world would be a better place without Suicide Bombers.. Without Terrorists (Whether they be Palestinians, Americans, or Saudis).. Just as I feel the world would be a better place without Bank Robbers.. except for giving us those good ol Westerns.. Love those movies, as I feel anyone would think the same way (Not that I need to Justify Myself). But it would take another discussion to delve into 'Is it the Ideals or Is it the People'...

Now.. My statement Idiotic?.. It was just validated above by someone who looked into the Palestinians as an 'Economic Unit' (As I have stated it was intended) as Truthful. If the Truth and Factual information is now Idiotic.. Ah well.. Anyways.. At best it is another piece that may one day come in handy, at worst it is Irrelevant.

God Bless America,
L.Unplugged


[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 03-31-2002).]
__________________

__________________
Lemonite is offline  
Old 03-31-2002, 07:06 PM   #107
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
ladywithspinninghead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,634
Local Time: 12:51 AM
[quote]Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

]
I don't usually agree with ladywithspinninghead, and am offended by her tendancy to use God's name irreverantly (in fact, I find that much more offensive than Lemonite saying Palestinians have no COMMERCIAL value). However, she has a point here. She did in fact type on the first post "Now, someone correct me if I'm wrong.....that's why I'm posting this - ". She was venting on that first post, but i really think she was inviting other's opinions. I think that the insults thrown her way (no insults were thrown by Lemonite, might I add) in this thread are really uncalled for. She and I disagree on this issue, and I believe she is wrong, but that doesn't mean that either one of us is stupid.
Thank you, thank you, thank you ! (for being the voice of reason as well as seeing that I have tried to come in here with at least a bit of an open mind - obviously I had my own opinions before posting the original thread - but I really wanted to probe and find out other people's views on the situation.) It's too bad some people here have a hard time with inquisitive, open-minded people....

I think I shall stick to querying my profs from now on though!

Sorry about using the word "god" so loosely - bad habit of mine, I know...sorry 'bout that.
__________________

__________________
ladywithspinninghead is offline  
Old 03-31-2002, 07:11 PM   #108
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
ladywithspinninghead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,634
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:
Thank you, thank you, thank you ! (for being the voice of reason as well as seeing that I have tried to come in here with at least a bit of an open mind - obviously I had my own opinions before posting the original thread - but I really wanted to probe and find out other people's views on the situation.) It's too bad some people here have a hard time with those at least "attempting" to be inquisitive and open-minded - lol!


I think I shall stick to querying my profs from now on though!

Sorry about using the word "god" so loosely - bad habit of mine, I know...sorry 'bout that.
__________________
ladywithspinninghead is offline  
Old 03-31-2002, 07:25 PM   #109
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
ladywithspinninghead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,634
Local Time: 12:51 AM

Well, I suppose the Swiss are living under the Alps 'cuz I've just been talking at lengths with my Swiss friend who is down doing his M.A. in journalism and he has never heard before that Arafat incites the Palestinians to violence when he speaks to them. He said he could speculate that that's the case but he's never actually heard that before. I suppose this "common knowledge" of this so-called "fact" then only extends to North America and Israel...hmmm, very interesting indeed......

__________________
ladywithspinninghead is offline  
Old 03-31-2002, 08:48 PM   #110
Acrobat
 
lady lemonade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: where the shhhreets have no name...
Posts: 492
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

Well, I suppose the Swiss are living under the Alps 'cuz I've just been talking at lengths with my Swiss friend who is down doing his M.A. in journalism and he has never heard before that Arafat incites the Palestinians to violence when he speaks to them. He said he could speculate that that's the case but he's never actually heard that before. I suppose this "common knowledge" of this so-called "fact" then only extends to North America and Israel...hmmm, very interesting indeed......

I really appreciate the fact that you seem to want to learn about the issue but it does sound like you have already made up your mind about Arafat having no ties whatsoever to the terrorist organization. So we have failed to provide you with an article giving irrefutable proofs that he is linked to the the terrorists. Like I said, my experience comes from having seeing him on tv saying those things and from reading about his possible ties with Iran and arms smuggling. Now you can call me a liar and say that all the stories are fabricated but I wouldn't be so quick to reject the hypothesis that he does send a different message in Arabic. I don't support Sharon's policy and I do believe that they're only gonna lead to more violence. However, I think that it is quite naive to believe that Arafat is poor victim of the whole situation and had absolutely no part of responsibility in it.
It's not because you and your friend haven't heard of those "facts" that there's no truth to them...
__________________
lady lemonade is offline  
Old 04-01-2002, 12:52 AM   #111
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
ladywithspinninghead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,634
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Yes, you're right, I think I have made up my mind. I saw an interview on CBC tonight with Dennis Ross (he was the U.S. envoy before Zinni as you all may remember). He stated himself tonight that while Arafat has not done anything to encourage the suicide attacks, he has not done anything to discourage them either. Now, that of course is an entirely different story from what I'm hearing here.

Furthermore, my initial outrage was due to the illogic of Israel attacking Arafat's compound. Ross expanded on this issue and said attacking Ramallah was highly ineffective and if anything, it would only have the effect of encouraging more suicide attacks. Hmmm, it seems to me I said this from day one.

So thank you all but I think I'll stick to the professionals!

(and here's an article that may be of further interest:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...676671,00.html

and this little tidbit from today's Guardian, too:

"Arafat's position has been subtly eroded by the months of intifada that have given renewed power and strength to those radical Palestinian organisations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad that Arafat himself has felt most threatened by and tried for so long to suppress."



[This message has been edited by ladywithspinninghead (edited 03-31-2002).]
__________________
ladywithspinninghead is offline  
Old 04-01-2002, 12:54 AM   #112
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
ladywithspinninghead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,634
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by lady lemonade:
it does sound like you have already made up your mind about Arafat having no ties whatsoever to the terrorist

Where are you folks getting this from?

I've said a couple times now that I'm well aware that some of the suicide attacks (especially the recent ones) are from factions directly related to Arafat's military/political wing. Does that necessarily mean he's ordering them though????
Sheesh.....

__________________
ladywithspinninghead is offline  
Old 04-01-2002, 03:13 AM   #113
Kid A
 
The Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holy Roman Empire
Posts: 5,271
Local Time: 12:51 AM
and now for the 4th time in 5 days...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Mar31.html
__________________
The Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-01-2002, 03:23 AM   #114
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
What I am Saying (For what is now at least the 10th Time) is that this "Collective gathering of People known as the Palestinians" AS AN ECONOMIC UNIT are a 'Doldrum' of Exporting/Producing Activity... Now AM I WRONG?.. Do they have a Flourishing Farming Industry.. or a Productive Internet Technology Company Out There?
I did a little bit of research on the Internet, but it seems to be impossible to find detailed statistics for Palestinians. This of course is due to the fact that Palestina is no country, so you would have to look for numbers of Israel, to extract any information about Palestinians. This should be no surprise (that nothing is known about Palestinians), as there also is, AFAIK, no information about Native Americans, aboriginals, African Americans, Kurds or Swedish-born Germans (to name just a few other examples). Looking at the website of the OECD (the Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development, http://www.oecd.org ), there doesn't even seem to be information about Israel (as it is a non-OECD country).

What I can say, having read from newspapers and magazines, is that Palestinians used to have an airport (but that was destroyed by the Israel army), they were building/having a harbour (also destroyed) and they of course had tourism (Bethlehem is in the occupied territories). Now, that last source has of course diminished for a couple of years (also because the Israel army is needlessy destroying the hotels in Bethlehem). Finally, many Palestinians worked in Israel (i.e. the not-occupied territories part) but they often were refused exit from the occupied territories, so not much income has come from that source either.

Marty

------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle
__________________
Popmartijn is offline  
Old 04-01-2002, 03:29 AM   #115
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rono's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 6,163
Local Time: 06:51 AM
That airport and habour where build with money of the european union.
__________________
Rono is offline  
Old 04-01-2002, 09:39 AM   #116
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 06:51 AM
This thread and the actions of the past few days got me thinking about the goal of the current Israeli assault. The more I see of it, the more I think that the effects will be negative for Israel.

First of all, I don't know really what the goal of Israel is. Do they want to cause the fall of Arafat? And if they succeed, then what?
For a solution to the conflict, both parties have to eventually reach an agreement. The representative of the Israelis is clear, it is the prime minister (currently Sharon). But who is the representative of the Palestinians? Currently it is Arafat, but who will it be when he is killed/captured/exiled?

Should Arafat disappear, a fight will erupt for the power of the Palestinian Authority. Until that fight is settled, Israel will have nobody to talk with, so they cannot advance towards peace and they have to accept suicide bombings (as no Palestinian will have the authority to condemn these bombings on behalf of the Palestinian people).
Whoever eventually will preside the Palestinian Authority, he/she will have to have at least a 'no disagreement' by Jihad and Hamas. So whoever will get the authority, it will probably not be someone less radical than Arafat. It's more likely that the leader will be more extremistic (which could lead to Israel refusing to acknowledge that person as a representative of the Palestinian people).

Don't underestimate the power of Jihad and Hamas. It has been suggested in the past (that is, until a few months ago), that those two groups were not executing their worst possible bombings as Arafat ordered the stopping of all bombings (a command they didn't adhere to totally). When, a few months ago, there were openings for peace talks, Jihad and Hamas issued statements saying they would not execute any actions in Israel so as to give Arafat and Israel a chance to reach an agreement (they did say that the actions in the occupied territories wouldn't stop). Of course, one or two weeks later they started again with their actions in Israel (when the talks seemed to have reaced a dead end), but for a small period they did lay down.
This indicated that these groups indeed (partly) listened to Arafat, but it also indicated that they have the power to neglect the authority. THEY would stop bombing (in Israel) to give the peace talks a chance, but THEY had also the power to immediately start the bombings again, no matter what Arafat would say.

Now, what would be the current position of Arafat? Does he still have authority? I think that with the actions of the past few days, Israel has ended his authority among Palestinians. Even if the Israeli army would retreat immediately, the image of Arafat is damaged too much. I don't think he will have the recognition from Jihad and Hamas (and the many other groups). So, in that sense Israel may have reached its goal, but should it by happy with?

Marty

------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle
__________________
Popmartijn is offline  
Old 04-01-2002, 12:32 PM   #117
Acrobat
 
lady lemonade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: where the shhhreets have no name...
Posts: 492
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:
Yes, you're right, I think I have made up my mind. I saw an interview on CBC tonight with Dennis Ross (he was the U.S. envoy before Zinni as you all may remember). He stated himself tonight that while Arafat has not done anything to encourage the suicide attacks, he has not done anything to discourage them either. Now, that of course is an entirely different story from what I'm hearing here.

Furthermore, my initial outrage was due to the illogic of Israel attacking Arafat's compound. Ross expanded on this issue and said attacking Ramallah was highly ineffective and if anything, it would only have the effect of encouraging more suicide attacks. Hmmm, it seems to me I said this from day one.

So thank you all but I think I'll stick to the professionals!
So if Mr Ross says so then it must be true
Look, there are a whole bunch of varying opinions by "professionals" on the subject but everyone uses the facts in a way as to serve their opinions. I was watching a round table on CNN yesterday (including a FM secretary of state, an advisor to Carter an some other "professionals") and they each had different views on who was responsible for what's going on and all their views were argued well and supported by facts. Does that mean that I'm going to start quoting them and say that so and so has THE definitive answer? No, because I ackowledge that those "professionals" as you call them are humans and although their views are valid they do not constitute the truth. THere's a difference between truth and opinion. You can believe whatever the hell you want to believe but don't insinuate that those who disagree with you are either gullible, ill-informed or are making up stories to convince you (since I personally couldn't care less). I haven't convinced you that Arafat is a scumbag but you surely didn't convince me that he doesn't support terrorism since you also failed to provide any evidence in support of that claim. Mr Ross' opinion and your friend's knowledge do not consitute facts in my eyes...

To go back to the topic of Arafat, I never said that he organized those attacks. What I said is that he supports them by his unwilligness to denounce them and arrest the terrorists within his own factions. I also believe that he propagates a different message in Arabic based on me seeing it with my own two eyes and by the various reports I've read which you can ignore if you want. Anyway, I don't believe that he can do anything about the violence now since the terrorists organizations seem to have taken over the Palestinian authority. Arafat has had ten years to do so but he has been unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary because he lacks courage, leadership and character. I don't agree with the current Israeli politics but I must say that Isreali leaders have been more willing to make those sacrfices. Rabbin payed with his life and Barrach lost the election all in the name of peace. Arafat, on the other hand, has been unwilling to take those steps because he's affraid of being at odds with his own terrorist groups. Arafat is just a front for the Western world, and a poor one at that...

[This message has been edited by lady lemonade (edited 04-01-2002).]
__________________
lady lemonade is offline  
Old 04-01-2002, 04:20 PM   #118
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Stow, MA, USA
Posts: 256
Local Time: 05:51 AM
CENSORSHIP IN AMERICA SUX.....
LETS TAKE A LOOK AT BOTH SIDES....

OPRESSION and HUNGER leads to TERRORISM.
What Americans don't see, is the numbers of innocent children, people being killed in Palestine.... SHARON is the reason why all these suicide bombings (sadly the victims are always innocent people)are going on. ARAFAT is useless. However, I think its fair enough to say that Arafat is less harmful.....
I THINK THE IDF IS A TERRORIST GROUP! They have commited the worst war crimes. Killing little children with Boxing Glove bombs isn't in any way a reach for peace, is it? The Palestinian side has done its side of harm on innocent people.. But the Israel IDF and Sharon has commited much worse...
By the way, sharon was part of a terrorist group previously.....
I'm saddened by the nuber of innocent lives taken on both sides. However, I think its time that Sharon took a step down. Its funny the other night he said, "I don't Hate anybody"... Right, Sharon is definently the devil in disguise.
Sad,
Amna
__________________
Amna is offline  
Old 04-01-2002, 04:40 PM   #119
The Fly
 
Rainbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 202
Local Time: 05:51 AM
I'm from Israel, and I just wanted to let you see things from my point of view: Do you know what it's like to be afraid to get out of your house? Because that's how I feel... The attacks are happening EVERY DAY!

I was on my way to see a movie a few days ago, and on the way I heard on the radio that a suicide bomber bombed a coffee shop on the same street as the Movie Theater was! So of course I immediately changed my plans... Can you even imagine what that's like??
So what do you expect Israel to do? Just sit and watch them kill innocent people?!
And how come it was okay for America to pursue Bin-Laden after 9-11, and it's not okay for Israel to pursue Arafat?

Just wanted to let you know what it's like to actually be here...


__________________
Rainbow is offline  
Old 04-01-2002, 05:02 PM   #120
Acrobat
 
lady lemonade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: where the shhhreets have no name...
Posts: 492
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Okay, so we have established that Sharon is guilty of having done some terrible things but why is it that everyone is so quick to judge him and to forget about Arafat's own terrorist past i.e., the hijacking of planes in the 70s, the murder of the Israeli athletes in Munich, etc. It's funny what a Nobel Peace Prize will do...

People always point the finger to Isarel about the poverty among the Palestinians but shouldn't Arafat have to be held responsible for that too? On the news here in Canada they were saying how some 500 millions of humanitary aid that was sent to the Palestinian authority dissapeared without a trace. Allegedly it was used for the purchase of more weapons. I agree that poverty is a terrible problem and breads violence. However, as in the case of Debt relief, you cannot keep throwing money at corrupt governments... Also, unlike many countries where people are dying of hunger, this is no the case in Palestine. The unemployment is high but people can still go to school, eat enough, have a car, a house, things that many in Africa and Afghanistan can only dream of. It doesn't make it right but there are other places in the world where people are more concerned about simple survival than planning terrorist acts. Also, before the second Intifada, many Palestinians were free to go work outside the occupied territory. After the wave of suicide attacks starting 18 months ago, Israel has had no choice but to establish checkpoints.

Oh, and Rainbow, I feel for you and I sincerely hope things get better. Stay safe tonight

[This message has been edited by lady lemonade (edited 04-01-2002).]
__________________

__________________
lady lemonade is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com