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Old 03-31-2002, 01:51 PM   #91
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Originally posted by lady lemonade:
Hence the need for a Palestinian leadership that will cooperate with Isreal instead of sending mixed messages...
True, but right now I don't think Ariel Sharon is showing a great willingness to cooperate with the Palestinian people, regardless of who is their leader.
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Old 03-31-2002, 02:00 PM   #92
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees:
True, but right now I don't think Ariel Sharon is showing a great willingness to cooperate with the Palestinian people, regardless of who is their leader.
I agree but the difference is that Sharon has only been PM for a couple of months while Arafat has been the leader of the Palestinians for more than a decade. He had some good partners for peace in Rabbin and Barrach but Arafat is not willing to make the sacrifices that will put him at odds with some extremists groups...
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Old 03-31-2002, 02:01 PM   #93
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Originally posted by mug222:
1) Lemonite said that the Palistinians are "just there." Please, if this is not a remark about their "worth as human beings," as you say, than explain to me what it is. I think we both know that it goes beyond their commercial value or whatever crap you are trying to feed us.

2) I have nothing against hatred--I respect that Lemonite hates Arafat, just as I hate Arafat, Sharon, and Lemonite. These are judgements based on a certain knowledge of the recipient of the hatred, founded in good judgement, and acceptable by my view. What is NOT acceptable is to belittle an entire race of people (and I would say "to hate them as well," but Lemonite is adamant that this is not the case.) I can debate politics like the rest of you, discussing the right of Israeli's to the Western Settlements (zilch..oh, no, wait, God told them to build a farm right there, right where it will annoy the Palistinians the most) or the proposed boundaries to a Palistinian state. But it's simply impossible to have a rational discussion about these ideas when Lemonite obstinately continues to refer to "people like" the Palistinians (a term I detest, and which I hear far too often), and to paint their populace in paint strokes altogether too broad.

Again, I will say it that No where was I referring to Palestinians as 'Dirt'. This was a manufactured ruse that was right from the start misguided.. As I have stated many times.. I'm not sitting here lying about this.. Why would I have any inclination to 'lie' about it.., I just want my point understood in the medium it was given. What I am Saying (For what is now at least the 10th Time) is that this "Collective gathering of People known as the Palestinians" AS AN ECONOMIC UNIT are a 'Doldrum' of Exporting/Producing Activity... Now AM I WRONG?.. Do they have a Flourishing Farming Industry.. or a Productive Internet Technology Company Out There?.. I Wrote earlier in this thread.. But Surprise Surprise, I will have to repeat it now.. If That statement is wrong, Then I will go back on it... That was all.. I was just putting it out there, like I wrote above as Food For Thought.. To keep in mind wherever it may ever apply.

NoWhere was I ever talking about 'Human Value'.. Please stop the Delusions just because you don't Like me.. It's unproductive.

With Respect To your Comments on 'Hatred'.
Again, You are putting words in my mouth by saying 'You Respect that Lemonite Hates Arafat', when just a few posts above I stated my position on this.. That I did not hate 'Arafat'. I even went so far to state that I didn't hate 'Liberals' (Including you Mug.. But Like I wrote above, I will disagree with the Liberal beliefs til the End of the Planet.. But It never leaves me 'HATING' the Soul of the Liberal.. Just disagreeing with the Beliefs.. IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?)... Just dismissing anything I write as 'Oh That's Not What You Truly Believe Now Lemonite'.. Is just ridiculous, because Again, I'm not here Lying to the Forum.. That gets us no where and I end up spending post after post writing the same thing because People fail to read my words.. Or maybe it's just a personal Ignoring of my words..

Lady and I were having a civilized discussion.. You just refuse to even try and have one with me because you do not like me.. Fair Enough.. Take your Ideals elsewhere if you are looking for some Discussion.. There are many people here that will indulge you.

L. Unplugged

[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 03-31-2002).]
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Old 03-31-2002, 02:50 PM   #94
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Old 03-31-2002, 04:06 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
Well, Slaney, we're waiting...
Aren't you the mature one. I find it fascinating that you have contributed absolutely nothing to this thread, other than personal attacks. "Well, Slaney, we're waiting..." Are you trying to win a contest or something? Most of us here are trying to engage in conversation and learn a thing or two. What's your goal? Did the kids in high school pick on you? and maybe now you feel the need to take it out on us or something? Sounds like if someone disagrees with you, they somehow become your incompetent enemy. Instead of bashing Lemonite and myself, you could focus that energy on actually learning something.

As far I'm concerned FizzingWhizzbees and nintendan presented a very legitimate case. Their intent was to point out their opinion, not to personally attack me because they disagree. I will respond to them separately, but I can't just dig up one article or explain my counter-arguement in two sentences.

You have to understand, I have studied this conflict very, very closely my entire life. It is a very detailed and complicated issue that must be explained precisely and carefully. I do find it interesting that the only thing people want to challenge me on is the last sentence in my reply.

FizzingWhizzbees and nintendan! Thank you for the maturity. Even though I disagree, I completely understand why you hold that opinion. It's not a cut and dry case. There is a lot of history behind it. Believe me, I'm not trying to justify the horrific acts that took place in those refugee camps in '82, but there are two sides to the issue.
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Old 03-31-2002, 04:13 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

haha, nice one...very selective of what I write and then twist it around! nice touch bud!

Anyhow, I think you'll find that throughout here I wanted to know about Arafat's ties to the terrorists, to what extent if so, and finally, his measure of influence amongst them. Sorry if I need to spell everything out!
Sorry! I'm not trying to offend you, but it did sound like you came in here with your mind already made up. I'm not trying to twist your words, but you do need to be careful with calling Sharon a "bastard" and making Arafat look somewhat innocent. As you already know, this is a very sensitive subject and we must be very careful with it. I do respect the fact that you are willing to admit that you want to learn more about this issue. I hope in some way that I can help.

HAVE AN AWESOME EASTER!!!
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Old 03-31-2002, 04:26 PM   #97
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Hmm...riled up a bit there, Slaney? In fact I've written on the conflicts of 1982 and I was just glad that Fizzing and nintendan so astutely raised the point before I could even see your post claiming so erroneously that "he has not committed any crimes or warcrimes that you can clearly and distinctly point out." Laughable!

Calm down--wouldn't want you to have a coronary on Easter.

EDIT: I've added a smiley face so you don't have to go off again. Like so many FYM threads, no views will be changed here so I'll make my exit before this thread begins to resemble Arafat's compound.

You get so angry about an innocuous phrase ("we're waiting") and then viciously attack me (nope, not teased in high school, thanks). So silly you are! My point is not to anger, but to confront the one sided view of so many of our fair nation. You're such a nut

[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 03-31-2002).]
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Old 03-31-2002, 04:33 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:


Calm down--wouldn't want you to have a coronary on Easter.

EDIT: I've added a smiley face so you don't have to go off again. Like so many FYM threads, no views will be changed here so I'll make my exit before this thread begins to resemble Arafat's compound.


[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 03-31-2002).]
Fling personal attacks around, offer no solid opinion, take one last jab, then take the easy way out when challenged... good form
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Old 03-31-2002, 04:35 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
Hmm...riled up a bit there, Slaney? In fact I've written on the conflicts of 1982 and I was just glad that Fizzing and nintendan so astutely raised the point before I could even see your post claiming so erroneously that "he has not committed any crimes or warcrimes that you can clearly and distinctly point out." Laughable!

Calm down--wouldn't want you to have a coronary on Easter.

EDIT: I've added a smiley face so you don't have to go off again. Like so many FYM threads, no views will be changed here so I'll make my exit before this thread begins to resemble Arafat's compound.

You get so angry about an innocuous phrase ("we're waiting") and then viciously attack me (nope, not teased in high school, thanks). So silly you are! My point is not to anger, but to confront the one sided view of so many of our fair nation. You're such a nut

[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 03-31-2002).]
Ho many times are you going to edit????
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Old 03-31-2002, 04:36 PM   #100
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Originally posted by S|aney:
Fling personal attacks around, offer no solid opinion, take one last jab, then take the easy way out when challenged... good form
Did you offer any facts? Everything I wanted to say was presented rather definitively in nintendan's article, which I suggest you read again.

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Old 03-31-2002, 04:37 PM   #101
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Originally posted by S|aney:
Ho many times are you going to edit????
3.

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Old 03-31-2002, 05:09 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
2) I have nothing against hatred--I respect that Lemonite hates Arafat, just as I hate Arafat, Sharon, and Lemonite. These are judgements based on a certain knowledge of the recipient of the hatred, founded in good judgement, and acceptable by my view. What is NOT acceptable is to belittle an entire race of people (and I would say "to hate them as well,"
[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 03-31-2002).]
ah, I get it. So as long as you only hate individuals and not an entire race, it's okay to hate. That's a new one on me.

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Old 03-31-2002, 06:02 PM   #103
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Also, a lot of you are in such uproar over Lemonite's post in which he said that the Palestinians have no COMMERCIAL value. However, look at that again. Not once in that post does Lemonite talk about their HUMAN VALUE. I think that is a distinction that needs to be drawn. Think about it please, and while you may still find that you don't agree with his assessment of their production value, you will admit he was not talking about their worth as human beings.

80s, I'm directing this to you, because I find you to be a very reasonable, tolerant, and generally pleasant person to have a discussion with. I can't speak for others, but this is what inherently bothers me about Lemonite's logic: First he said, "Just an addendum in the middle of this post.. the Palestinians are a band of people who produce nothing, they have no commercial value, no 'industrial' practices.. They produce nothing, They are just there.. Ok.. Back to the post." Then, later on, he was trying to explain what he really meant, and concluded that "I was just putting it out there, like I wrote above as Food For Thought.. To keep in mind wherever it may ever apply." If we are to take him at face value, then under what circumstances would the economic output of the Palestinians ever "apply" as Lemonite put it? If this were a thread discussing the most economically viable plan for bringing financial prosperity to the Middle East, Lemonite would have a point. But that's NOT AT ALL what this thread is about. If the underlying theme or undercurrent is the discussion of what is currently going on politically in Israel, the West Bank, etc., and what the viable solutions for a peace plan are, then the "commercial value" of the Palestinians MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Hence, if you take Lemonite's comments in context of what it is that we're debating here, they come off as incredibly offensive. When one is discussing peace solutions and comments saying that an entire nation has no commercial value and is "just there" are made, then it is not unreasonable for the rest of us to come to the conclusion that Lemonite somehow equates peace with said commercial value. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
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Old 03-31-2002, 06:06 PM   #104
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Back to this idiotic statement once again.

"Just an addendum in the middle of this post.. the Palestinians are a band of people who produce nothing, they have no commercial value, no 'industrial' practices.. They produce nothing, They are just there.. Ok.. Back to the post."


Just to show what an idiotic and racist statment it is. Supposing he had said

"Just an addendum in the middle of this post.. BLACKS are a band of people who produce nothing, they have no commercial value, no 'industrial' practices.. They produce nothing, They are just there.. Ok.. Back to the post."

Doesn't that bring things further into light (or darkness)?

Certainly he didn't say 'human value' but who would wager that he doesn,t like palestinians.

Let me ask Lemonite several questions.
You say you never said that you hated Palestinians. Ok. Now I'm asking you;

Do you like Palestinians?
Do you think the world would be a better place without them?
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Old 03-31-2002, 06:15 PM   #105
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

ah, I get it. So as long as you only hate individuals and not an entire race, it's okay to hate. That's a new one on me.

Yep, you got it.

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