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Old 03-31-2002, 01:26 AM   #76
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ladywithspinninghead,

Thank you for pointing out my Syria/Lebanon blunder.
It's nice that you've travelled the world a bit, but truly unfortunate that you spent the duration of your travels with an enormous boulder on your head.

MAP
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Old 03-31-2002, 03:20 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

I also find interesting that many people here have said that Arafat will say one thing in English but another thing in Arabic - that's the first I hear of that and I'm an avid reader of the newspapers, news sites, etc. Could someone please give me a credible source (article or otherwise) regarding this?
If this really is true, well then I won't be so willing to defend Arafat....
ladywithspinninghead,

The level of your ignorance about Arafat is staggering. Literally staggering. I thought the media here in the U.S. was bad but the Canadian media must be far and away the worst in the world. That, or you are not at all the avid media follower you claim to be.

You're actually surprised that Arafat says one thing to the Western media and another to the Arabic world and the Palestinian people? My God, what rock have you been hiding under for all of your life?
You doubt that Arafat has ties to terrorist groups? Even Arafat acknowledges that he does. That must be one hell of a rock over your head that you call home.
You consider Arafat a reasonable man, a man of peace merely because he says he is?????????????? If you're that naive I have a bridge I can sell you but cheap.
Do you take that idiot Sharon at his word? Then why Arafat?
You don't think America would deal with a known terrorist? Would this be the same America that has had dealings with nearly every despot on earth? Except, bizarrely, Castro?

What frustrates me to the point of rage about the Middle East is that for the duration of my life (27 years) there's been talk of "Peace in the Middle East" and it's all an elaborate charade put on for the benefit of the woefully ignorant, the naive and the merely stupid.
The Israeli government claims that it wants peace but they'll only accept a peace that gives the Palestinian people nothing. A peace where the Palestinians are a cowed and groveling people.
The Palestinian authority and other terrorist groups insist publically that all they want is peace and their own state. But they've been offered both and refused them. Lemonite, LEMONITE of all the idiots of the world was actually right about that. Arafat was offered a peace plan during the Clinton years that would have given the Palestinians 97% of the land they are publically demanding and their own state. I'm reasonable sure that a majority of the Palestinian people would have agreed to that deal but they never got a chance. Arafat turned it down.
Now we have this mockery of a peace process going on. And what happens? The Saudis propose a plan similar to the one brockered during the Clinton administration. And KABLOOIE! Bombs start going off like mad, the Syrians refuse to let Arafat speak at a conference of Arabic nations and Arafat starts insisting he wants martyrdom. Why?Because the powers that be DON'T want peace with Israel. They want Israel destroyed.

Peace process my ass.

MAP

p.s.- If Israel really wanted to kill Arafat they could do it in about five minutes. Room to room fighting to kill Arafat my ass. They'd just bomb the facility from the skies.
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Old 03-31-2002, 03:20 AM   #78
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Originally posted by Bbug:
Finally, yeah, your screening process would be wrong. It's a bad idea because instead of focusing on suspicious behaviour, license irregularities, etc, you're saying you'd find it better to single out people based on race. So, Lemonite, if Timothy McVeigh had wanted to rent your cropduster, buy fertilizer from you, rent your truck, etc, and he's a white guy with a crew cut who spent time in the military, how does your screening process hold up? Are you gonna "save my life" then, oh glorious patriot? It's inherently flawed.
The 7-11 story is just a coincidence.. But interesting none the less... Because there were other stories I heard of such related incidents.. If you wish to dismiss it then all the better for you.. I won't be offended.

No.. It's not inherently flawed.. With Evidence of Atta and other Hijackers inquiring about 'CropDusters', Just the fact that someone similar to Atta would be inquiring is suspicious enough.. Sadly it may boil down to ethnicity... But Don't Blame Me on that one.. blame the Terrorists. It's no wrong action on my part to follow up on what may turn out to be something bad brewing (In regards to my Make Believe Crop Dusting Company).. It's just common sense... Just following what our president said to do.. Keep my eyes out. For anyone, or anything suspicious.. It just happens that in this case All the hijackers were of Arab descent.. Profile or No Profile, It's the truth.

If you want, in another argument we can bring up further screening practices or what not.. But that's not the issue here, and you know it isn't...

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[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 03-30-2002).]
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Old 03-31-2002, 08:14 AM   #79
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Quote:
Witnesses said the restaurant was crowded at the time of the blast. The building was severely damaged in the explosion, and a large hole could be seen in its roof.

Both Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the terror attack. Hamas is a Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist group that has been labeled by the U.S. State Department as a terrorist organization. Palestinian Islamic Jihad is a militant group dedicated to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel.

It was the fifth such attack in Israel since the beginning of the Passover holiday Wednesday night. The attacks have killed at least 40 Israelis and wounded more than 100. In the most deadly strike, a suicide bombing in the Israeli coastal town of Netanya claimed 22 lives.
The part that gets me here, is the line:
Quote:
Palestinian Islamic Jihad is a militant group dedicated to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel.
These people don't want truce, or their own land next to Isreal. They want a fight to the death.

What do you do about that?

Give it to them?

Mark
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Old 03-31-2002, 08:28 AM   #80
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Originally posted by S|aney:
Regardless of your opinions of him, he has not committed any crimes or warcrimes that you can clearly and distinctly point out.

In 1982 Sharon was Israeli defence minister and was removed from this office after an Israeli tribunal found him indirectly responsible for the massacre of thousands of Palestinian and Lebanese citizens in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.
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Old 03-31-2002, 09:05 AM   #81
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Israel's Sharon Accused
As War Criminal
by Dean Andromidas

Europe was publicly and harshly reminded on June 17, of how Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon earned the name "the Butcher of Lebanon." BBC television's "Panorama" program aired a devastating documentary, "The Accused," detailing Sharon's central role in the infamous massacre of Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, during the 1982 Israeli-Lebanese war. The program made clear that Sharon could be brought before a international tribunal to be tried as a "Class A" war criminal.

On June 18, twenty-three Palestinian survivors of that massacre presented an investigative judge in Belgium with charges against Sharon for war crimes. Under Belgian law, which allows for plaintiffs of any nation to present such cases in a Belgian court, the judge will now open his own official investigation, which could end with a war crimes indictment of Sharon.

These events are part of a growing uproar internationally, particularly in Europe, against the policies of Sharon's government. The countries of the European Union (EU) and Russia are convinced that if Sharon is not stopped, he will force the Middle East into a war, with catastrophic consequences for the entire world. The "Panorama" program and the Belgian investigation in themselves will not stop Sharon, but they will, nonetheless, seriously hinder his hopes to win the propaganda war to convince the world that his government is only defending itself against Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat, the "terrorist."

The BBC Accuses
"Panorama" vividly recounts the bloody events of early Autumn 1982, when then-Defense Minister Sharon authorized his allies, the Lebanese Phalangist militias, to enter the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, which culminated in the slaughter of 800 men, women, and children. The United Nations put the figure at 1,500, and a later investigation by the International Red Cross put the death toll at 2,750. These victims were civilians, noncombatants in the civil war that had raged in Lebanon, or against the invading Israeli forces. Most of the victims—old men, women, and children—where not shot, but were tortured to death, the bodies mutilated in one of the worst massacres since World War II.

"Panorama" also demonstrated that Sharon has broken signed agreements, promises made to the President of the United States, and is a prolific liar—a fact that Washington policy circles should take careful note of, if they still entertain any illusions that Sharon is a "partner for peace."

The BBC account falls short in one important respect, failing to identify Sharon's intention in invading Lebanon. It was not simply to force the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) out of Lebanon, but to establish a puppet regime in Beirut and to proceed to attack Damascus, Syria; if that were not stopped, to march on Baghdad, Iraq; and, at the same time, to implement his "Jordan is Palestine policy," to push all the Palestinians of the West Bank into the Kingdom of Jordan. Despite the fact that there was a political consensus in Israel and within the Reagan Administration for such a policy, Sharon used all his powers of deceit and manipulation to implement his grand scheme. In fact, such an operational military plan had existed within Israeli military doctrine since the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

In recounting the events of 1982, the "Panorama" moderator, Fergal Keane, stated, "In June 1982, Israel's army stormed across an international border and invaded Lebanon. The Israelis said they wanted to protect their borders from Palestinian guerrilla attack, and Ariel Sharon's army was soon laying siege to . . . Beirut."

In September 1982, the United States brokered a cease-fire that included the Israelis, Syrians, and various Lebanese factions, aimed at ending the Israeli intervention and the civil war that had been raging in Lebanon since the 1970s. That agreement was favorable to the Israelis and led to the PLO's evacuation to Tunisia. It also led to the withdrawal of a multinational peacekeeping force, while naming Bashir Gemayel, leader of the Phalange and Israel's main ally, as President of Lebanon. The United States promised to back a program of reconstruction. In return, Israel was to begin withdrawing its forces over a 12-week period, and not to enter West Beirut, the stronghold of the Lebanese Muslim factions and the site of Sabra and Shatila.

On Sept. 14, within days of this agreement, Sharon broke Israel's promise, sending Israeli forces to occupy West Beirut. Their attack began hours before its stated pretext—the assassination of Bashir Gemayel in a bomb attack—had occurred! That same day, Israeli armored forces surrounded Sabra and Shatila. All these operations were coordinated with the Phalangists, who were "allowed" by Sharon—in Beirut at the time—to enter the Palestinian camps. The unarmed Palestinians had been the Phalangists' most bitter enemies, a fact which formed the basis for the Phalange alliance with Israel. The Phalangists, like Sharon, had as their goal the expulsion of the 500,000 Palestinian refugees from Lebanon. The next 48 hours witnessed horrible carnage.

`You Must Stop, They Are Killing Children!'
"Panorama" interviewed eyewitnesses, including Israelis, Palestinians, foreign journalists, and aid workers, on the horrors of those events. "Panorama" also interviewed senior diplomats and legal experts who had been intimately involved in the events of 1982, who gave precise testimony to the fact that Sharon can be classified as a "Class A" war criminal.

Judge Richard Goldstone, former Chief Prosecutor for the United Nations War Crime Tribunals (1994-96), gave "Panorama" a precise definition of the war crime Sharon stands accused of: "A military commander and a political leader who was involved in giving instructions would clearly have an obligation under the law of war, and under the Geneva Convention, to ensure that innocent civilians were not murdered or raped or injured in any way. Command responsibility goes fairly far. It requires, obviously, knowledge of the danger to innocent civilians; if there's that knowledge, then there's an obligation to take reasonable steps to protect them."[FIGURE 51]

When Israel occupied West Beirut, it became responsible for the safety of all civilians, as Goldstone defined it. But in 1982, the Israeli government hid behind the legalistic fraud that Israel was not responsible for killings by the Phalange. Sharon claimed, "Not for a moment did we imagine that they would do what they did." But "Panorama" interviewed Morris Draper, who, in 1982, was President Ronald Reagan's special envoy for the Lebanese war, asking him to comment on Sharon's "innocence through ignorance." He replied: "Complete and utter nonsense. . . . You'd have to be appallingly ignorant. I mean, I suppose if you came down from the Moon that day you might not have predicted it." When asked whether he had any doubts of Sharon's responsibility, Draper said, "No doubt whatsoever."

Draper was the author of the cease-fire agreement, and had promised the safety of the Palestinians. "Panaroma" quotes his message to Sharon when the first reports of the massacres reached him: "You must stop the acts of slaughter, they are horrifying. I have a representative in the camp counting the bodies. You should be ashamed. The situation is absolutely appalling. They're killing children! You have the field completely under your control and are therefore responsible for that area."

Richard Falk, Professor of International Law at Princeton University and a member of the United Nations commission that investigated the events, told "Panorama": "Sharon's specific command responsibility arises from the fact that he was minister of defense in touch with the field commanders, that he actually was present there in Beirut, that he met with the Phalange leadership, and it was he that gave the directions and order that resulted in the Phalange entering the camps in September. . . . There is no question in my mind that he is indictable for the kind of knowledge that he either had or should have had."

Sharon's defenders, including his spokesman Ranaan Gissen, use the report of the Kahane Commission, which was established by the Israeli government to investigate the massacre. The commission found that there was "no conspiracy" by the Israelis to perpetrate the massacre. Nonetheless, the commission found that Sharon "disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps. He failed to take this danger into account when he decided to have the Phalangists enter the camps." He failed to order "appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre as a condition for the Phalangist entry into the camps."

Even this, under international law, is grounds for a war crimes indictment. Judge Goldstone, commenting on the Kahane Commission report, said, "Well, clearly, justice requires that criminals should be brought to book, and if people, regardless of who they are, are shown by an investigation to have been in breach of the law, then clearly criminal prosecution should follow; and in the case of Sabra and Shatila, clearly the Kahane Commission found that very serious crimes had been committed, and I have no doubt any decent person would regret the fact that not a single criminal prosecution followed."

In 1982, the affair led to the removal of Sharon as defense minister and a ruling that he was unfit to ever hold that post. That has not barred him from becoming prime minister.

The massacre led to the collapse of the cease-fire and the total discrediting of American Middle East policy. U.S. troops and citizens became open targets for terrorist attacks. Lebanon's civil war lasted another seven bloody years.

Will Sharon Be Thrown in the Dock?
The case filed against Sharon in a Belgian court promises to be every bit as dramatic as "The Accused," but unlike the "Panorama" moderator, the Belgian judge will have the powers of the state supporting him. He has the power, in the form of subpoenas and indictments, to conduct interviews and interrogations. Although it is unlikely that Sharon will end up in a Belgian dock, this case promises to keep the Israeli Foreign Ministry and Sharon's spin-doctors very busy.

The Belgian government, particularly its Foreign Minister, Louis Marcel, has been very critical of Sharon's government, and supports fully the recommendations of the Mitchell Commission report, particularly its call for a freeze on Jewish settlements. Belgium will soon take on the EU presidency, from which position it will be able to make these concerns known. As the case proceeds, it will be followed closely throughout Europe.

Because Belgium has incorporated the Geneva Convention within its legal system, the 23 Palestinian survivors were able to present their case before its courts. They were represented by three lawyers, Luc Walleyn and Michael Verhaeghe of Belgium and Chibi Mallat of Lebanon, who told Reuters on June 18, "We hope that Mr. Sharon will be brought to justice, will be tried, and will defend himself."

Both Walleyn and Verhaeghe are highly professional human rights lawyers. Walleyn is a member of Avocats Sans Frontières, and has prosecuted Belgian soldiers accused of human rights violations while serving as UN peacekeepers in Somalia; but, he has also handled the legal defense of a high Rwandan official accused of participating in the Rwanda genocide. Verhaeghe represented the International Confederation of Free Trade Unions in their case against former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet.

Walleyn told EIR he is confident that Judge Collignon, the investigative judge, will pursue a vigorous inquiry. The judge will no doubt receive assistance from other states such as Denmark or France, thus broadening his reach. The case can, and hopefully will, constrain Sharon's freedom of action in carrying out a Bush-backed war policy.
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Old 03-31-2002, 10:18 AM   #82
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Well, Slaney, we're waiting...
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Old 03-31-2002, 11:08 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by S|aney:
IT IS A FACT that Arafat is a terrorist.
IT IS A FACT that Sharon is a war hero.

But instead, it sounds like you already had your mind made up!

No hard feelings! Happy Easter to you too!

[This message has been edited by S|aney (edited 03-30-2002).]

haha, nice one...very selective of what I write and then twist it around! nice touch bud!

Anyhow, I think you'll find that throughout here I wanted to know about Arafat's ties to the terrorists, to what extent if so, and finally, his measure of influence amongst them. Sorry if I need to spell everything out!
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Old 03-31-2002, 11:15 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
ladywithspinninghead,

Thank you for pointing out my Syria/Lebanon blunder.
It's nice that you've travelled the world a bit, but truly unfortunate that you spent the duration of your travels with an enormous boulder on your head.

MAP
Er, Matthew? What's your problem?

Seriously bud...why don't you shed some light on the issue instead of making this personal? Why do you feel you have to resort to personal attacks?

I am WELL aware of Arafat's past - I know damned well that the PLO was responsible for most of the atrocities committed before the early 90's. But that does not necessarily mean that Arafat has a direct hand in what is occurring today - to what degree is his influence?!? Who knows - maybe you and I have two different takes on what constitutes a terrorist - perhaps you subscribe to the prevailing view amongst the Israeli troops that stone-throwing kids pose a threat.
If so, then I'm afraid, we should have cleared up the semantics issue in the beginning. I want to know what exactly Arafat's ties are to Hamas. You have not given me anything to substantiate this except insults.

I may have a boulder on my head but at least I wasn't born with a chip on my shoulder...
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Old 03-31-2002, 11:55 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
No, the feelings you've expressed here go far beyond the boundaries of political correctness; they cross the line of human decency. It is one thing to hate Mr. Arafat--it is quite another to hate the Palistinian people (a hatred that you may deny, but which is clear in your posts.)
p.s. The "vain"? A humorous misspelling, when one considers the source.
mug, what in the world are you talking about? I saw no post which makes me even consider as a possibility that Lemonite "hates" Palestinians.
You're a fine one to preach about hatred, after what you said about Lemonite in an earlier thread.
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Old 03-31-2002, 12:05 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

Sheesh people, that was the whole intention of this thread for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to know - I wanted people to fill me in....I wanted to be enlightened - not bloody insulted, okay?
I've been scouring other sources - this was one of many - remind me to never do it again -
Happy Easter to you too...
I don't usually agree with ladywithspinninghead, and am offended by her tendancy to use God's name irreverantly (in fact, I find that much more offensive than Lemonite saying Palestinians have no COMMERCIAL value). However, she has a point here. She did in fact type on the first post "Now, someone correct me if I'm wrong.....that's why I'm posting this - ". She was venting on that first post, but i really think she was inviting other's opinions. I think that the insults thrown her way (no insults were thrown by Lemonite, might I add) in this thread are really uncalled for. She and I disagree on this issue, and I believe she is wrong, but that doesn't mean that either one of us is stupid.
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Old 03-31-2002, 12:08 PM   #87
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Also, a lot of you are in such uproar over Lemonite's post in which he said that the Palestinians have no COMMERCIAL value. However, look at that again. Not once in that post does Lemonite talk about their HUMAN VALUE. I think that is a distinction that needs to be drawn. Think about it please, and while you may still find that you don't agree with his assessment of their production value, you will admit he was not talking about their worth as human beings.
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Old 03-31-2002, 12:32 PM   #88
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The Middle East... I sometimes wonder if ther will ever be peace there. Israel has occupied the Westbank and Gaza strip for the past 35 years now and will do so as long as there will be resistance/terror from Palestinians, but as long as Israel occupies the Palestinians and also use terror against them the Palestinians won't stop.....a deadlock situation.
Now you can blame Palestinians for using terror, which is wrong, but do they have other means???? Remember, they are the ones being occupied, and not just occupied, Israel is also stealing land from them by making these colonies on the Westbank based on some religious right they believe to have.

Perhaps the only solution is a rather sad one: Jahweh or Allah gets really pissed off and throws some giant meteor on Jerusalem which would wipe away entire Israel and Palestina, 'cause the fighting there will continue for quite a while. The other solution would be that Cupid came along with a couple of million arrows....



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Old 03-31-2002, 12:37 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Also, a lot of you are in such uproar over Lemonite's post in which he said that the Palestinians have no COMMERCIAL value. However, look at that again. Not once in that post does Lemonite talk about their HUMAN VALUE. I think that is a distinction that needs to be drawn. Think about it please, and while you may still find that you don't agree with his assessment of their production value, you will admit he was not talking about their worth as human beings.

[quote]Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
mug, what in the world are you talking about? I saw no post which makes me even consider as a possibility that Lemonite "hates" Palestinians.
You're a fine one to preach about hatred, after what you said about Lemonite in an earlier thread.
What in the world are you talking about? Two points which I thought would be clear to anyone:

1) Lemonite said that the Palistinians are "just there." Please, if this is not a remark about their "worth as human beings," as you say, than explain to me what it is. I think we both know that it goes beyond their commercial value or whatever crap you are trying to feed us.

2) I have nothing against hatred--I respect that Lemonite hates Arafat, just as I hate Arafat, Sharon, and Lemonite. These are judgements based on a certain knowledge of the recipient of the hatred, founded in good judgement, and acceptable by my view. What is NOT acceptable is to belittle an entire race of people (and I would say "to hate them as well," but Lemonite is adamant that this is not the case.) I can debate politics like the rest of you, discussing the right of Israeli's to the Western Settlements (zilch..oh, no, wait, God told them to build a farm right there, right where it will annoy the Palistinians the most) or the proposed boundaries to a Palistinian state. But it's simply impossible to have a rational discussion about these ideas when Lemonite obstinately continues to refer to "people like" the Palistinians (a term I detest, and which I hear far too often), and to paint their populace in paint strokes altogether too broad.



[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 03-31-2002).]
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Old 03-31-2002, 01:45 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vorsprung:
The Middle East... I sometimes wonder if ther will ever be peace there. Israel has occupied the Westbank and Gaza strip for the past 35 years now and will do so as long as there will be resistance/terror from Palestinians, but as long as Israel occupies the Palestinians and also use terror against them the Palestinians won't stop.....a deadlock situation.
Now you can blame Palestinians for using terror, which is wrong, but do they have other means???? Remember, they are the ones being occupied, and not just occupied, Israel is also stealing land from them by making these colonies on the Westbank based on some religious right they believe to have.

Perhaps the only solution is a rather sad one: Jahweh or Allah gets really pissed off and throws some giant meteor on Jerusalem which would wipe away entire Israel and Palestina, 'cause the fighting there will continue for quite a while. The other solution would be that Cupid came along with a couple of million arrows....

Hey good idea, why don't we finish off Hitler's work and wipe off another couple million Jews off the face of the Earth. I'm sorry but I thought that remark was distatesful and offending

And about the religious rights you were talking about, I agree that colonization by Jewish settlers is wrong and constitutes provocation. But you fail to address the terrorists's claims that it's their religious duty to wipe off all infidels from holy arab land. They do not want peace and that's why they pursue terror whenever the two nations are coming close to an agreement or a ceasefire. As long as there are extremists groups there will never be peace. Hence the need for a Palestinian leadership that will cooperate with Isreal instead of sending mixed messages...
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