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Old 03-29-2002, 05:20 PM   #16
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By the way, it seems like the U.S. is more one-sided today than in previous weeks/months because they have a lot less to gain now that Cheney was unable to secure Arab backing for an attack against Iraq. It's too bad their more balanced support in recent months didn't stem from a genuine desire to see peace in the region instead of stemming from an ulterior motive...


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Old 03-29-2002, 05:27 PM   #17
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Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

Yeah, interesting but as aforementioned if the Western governments really thought Arafat was still a "terrorist", I hardly think they would have accorded him official recognition and have been willing to deal with him as they have done....

Furthermore, I have been reading up on this today and I have been watching the news (albeit from a biaised american media) and something I learned was pretty interesting. There is a sort of "civil war" going on amongst Palestinians and there is the danger that if Arafat was to prosecute all those factions responsible for the suicide attacks, he'd run the risk of being toppled and replaced by extremist militants. It is indeed in the U.S' and Israel's best interest (not to say the world, but they don't need convincing) to have Arafat remain in power.

Moreover, Arafat does indeed have authority amongst Palestinians. And when he is being portrayed as a "victim" as he was today, his popularity only surges - not only amongst Palestinians but amongst the Arab world.
Sharon is only doing the guy a favour, really.


Just out of curiosity?.. Did Cheney visit with Arafat in his middle eastern trip to visit with all the Arab Leaders?.. I don't quite think that he is recognized as a man in 'authority' at all. And who are you saying has 'dealt' with Arafat?.. I don't quite think our administration (I'll have to go check the records).. Clinton??.. He was just looking for a legacy.. I think that any 'recognition' of Arafat as a 'leader' just goes along with what you were saying and what I was trying to somewhat revise.. That There isn't really anyone else to be at least a 'figurehead'.. Or a scapegoat however you wish to put it.

Well said on the 'civil war' part.. Arafat is truly in danger.. I don't quite think that pictures of him 'crunching under a desk' avoiding the shelling makes him more of a hero... In fact, I dont' think that his claims of becoming a 'martyr', would even come true.. It's the terrorist groups that are running this place.. With Arafat at the 'figurehead' position, the responsibility goes firstly through him then to Hamas et al.. They love it... Buut.. Arafat is definitely in danger now.. Like I wrote above, I wouldn't be surprised if he's killed.. and somewhere under teh table and on the streets...the word spreads about who killed him.. (We would never hear it) And this guy/group would rise to prominence.. And Yes, it would become Apparent Anarchy as opposed to teh 'Hidden Anarchy' it is now.. That's why they haven't killed Arafat now.. As much as Sharon would like..

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Old 03-29-2002, 05:32 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

By the way, it seems like the U.S. is more one-sided today than in previous weeks/months because they have a lot less to gain now that Cheney was unable to secure Arab backing for an attack against Iraq. It's too bad their more balanced support in recent months didn't stem from a genuine desire to see peace in the region instead of stemming from an ulterior motive...

I wouldn't be so sure that they didn't gain support.. What I heard in the media.. which is far from what went on in private is that the Arab Countries want to see some sort of peace agreement or peaceful setting in Israel before they really give any consideration to an Iraq assault... Which by the way will come... Also, Didn't Israel Agree to talking about peace until the Palestinians started the Suicide Bombings again.. Do you not expect Israel to Retaliate?.. Apparently not..

I know it is this unending cycle, but Israel would'nt keep sending Apaches and F-16's to blow up Offices in Gaza et al if the Suicide Bombings stopped. It's up to this leader of the PLO you refer to.. If he has so much power.

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Old 03-29-2002, 05:47 PM   #19
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Its to bad the Arab countries decided to cosy up to Iraq at the Arab summit and not support the USA. The biggest threat to peace in the region is Saddam Hussain and the Arab countries are stupid to ignore it and are obsessed with the mess they created with by not accepting the UN resolution that called for a Jewish state and a Palestinian state back in 1948 and instead attacked Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973.
Its about time the Arabs and Arafat sat down and worked to do what the USA suggest. Of course, Arafat is probably not a person that can get anything done.
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Old 03-29-2002, 05:49 PM   #20
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By the way, the fact that we have dealed with Arafat does not mean the US government doesn't think he might be a Terrorist with bad motives. We dealed with Milisovic at the end of 1995 when the Bosnian war came to an end.
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Old 03-29-2002, 05:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
I wouldn't be so sure that they didn't gain support.. What I heard in the media.. which is far from what went on in private is that the Arab Countries want to see some sort of peace agreement or peaceful setting in Israel before they really give any consideration to an Iraq assault... Which by the way will come... Also, Didn't Israel Agree to talking about peace until the Palestinians started the Suicide Bombings again.. Do you not expect Israel to Retaliate?.. Apparently not..
I know it is this unending cycle, but Israel would'nt keep sending Apaches and F-16's to blow up Offices in Gaza et al if the Suicide Bombings stopped. It's up to this leader of the PLO you refer to.. If he has so much power.
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You're right, lemonite. People make a dangerous mistake when they underestimate the levels to which Arafat will stoop to destroy Israel.
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Old 03-29-2002, 05:57 PM   #22
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Originally posted by STING2:
Its to bad the Arab countries decided to cosy up to Iraq at the Arab summit and not support the USA.
Yah... I was disgusted by the Saudi Leaders Hugging and Kissing the Representative from Iraq that came out a day or so ago.

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Old 03-29-2002, 06:04 PM   #23
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Lemonite,

You're saying Arafat is obviously just a figurehead because he hasn't been able to round up the terrorists???
Draw a parallel then - what would that say about the U.S. administration if they can't even capture Bin Laden or most leading Al-Quaeda fugitives...


And to Sting - you really think in this post Sept. 11th world, the U.S. would be willing to deal with someone they really believed was a terrorist? Je ne pense pas.


By the way people, I'd like to know what proof you have that Arafat is still associated with terrorists today. All of you inclined to think so are Americans (I think) and I'm just wondering what your sources are...Interesting how non-Americans aren't so quick to judge Arafat as such....
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Old 03-29-2002, 06:04 PM   #24
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Originally posted by STING2:
We dealed with Milisovic at the end of 1995 when the Bosnian war came to an end.
Yeah, then he went about persecuting the Albanains in Kosovo. This man was responsible for most of the violence in the Balkans. Eventually, when the West got fed up with dealing with the lying lunatic, they went after him, and he's in the Hague. They never should have had any business with him in the first place. I think it's really offensive to those who died in the Balkans (and I know plenty, children, women, etc.) to think that Milosevic was a peacemaker. He was an opportunist, and only spoke of peace when he no longer thought he could win the war.
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Old 03-29-2002, 06:16 PM   #25
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Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

That's the mandatory controversial, provocatirve part of Lemonite's post...just ignore it...he's out to shock...
Yep! Isn't it great how he undermines any actual point he may have by adding something as nonsensical and sensationalistic as that tripe? It's wonderful how he takes care of those who disagree with him by deflating his own argument so they don't have to.

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Old 03-29-2002, 06:20 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

Lemonite,

You're saying Arafat is obviously just a figurehead because he hasn't been able to round up the terrorists???
Draw a parallel then - what would that say about the U.S. administration if they can't even capture Bin Laden or most leading Al-Quaeda fugitives...

They are not related. No parallel.

But I will indulge you, the difference is that Arafat is making NO effort to try and round up any terrorists.. In fact (An If I get the time I'll round up that article) Arafat is sending orders for more Suicide Bombs.


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Old 03-29-2002, 06:25 PM   #27
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Originally posted by mug222:
Yep! Isn't it great how he undermines any actual point he may have by adding something as nonsensical and sensationalistic as that tripe?
Ah.. Welcome Back, The Creative mind who Manifested the Eloquently Spoken 'Dumb Fuck'. I have been awaiting your return.

I included the above 'ripped' statement just as a little point, Just to kind of take in and digest, to keep in mind that the Palestines aren't some sort of 'government' or 'country', because it is true, They have no industry, they have no exported products. Do with it what you may.. That's all. It's nice to see that just because it is disagreed with that it is called 'tripe'. Mug I think we all know where you are coming from. But it's good to hear from you.. now if you will, allow Lady and I to continue our discussion.

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Old 03-29-2002, 07:16 PM   #28
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The point is not necessarily what Arafat IS doing and WHO he's doing it with but perhaps more of what he's NOT doing. Isreal has been calling on Arafat for almost 2 years now to reign in on the violence. What it comes down to is 'you're either with us or against us' which I don't think is a bad mindset to have. Isreal is fed up and feel they need to take action. Since 9/11 the focus to combat terrorism has increased drastically...for obvious reasons. And still Arafat sits on his ass and does nothing to help with the peace process.
Picture a child...your child....who runs in and out of the house...slamming the screen door incessantly and no matter how many times you ask him to stop he either thinks it's funny or just doesn't listen. What you do when you can't take it anymore, whether it's 'time out' or a smack on the ass, is up to you but there is a breaking point. Isreal has reached that point and I personally don't blame them. Of course I have hoped and will always hope for a peaceful solution but as the saying goes: Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
The Isrealis have no intentions of harming Arafat. They have him cornered and the power to do it......they would have done it by now.
They have also taken into custody over 65 people believed to be involved in terroist activity as a result of taking over Arafats compound.
Amen.

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Old 03-29-2002, 07:43 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Lemonite:
now if you will, allow Lady and I to continue our discussion.
No. When you characterize an entire "band of people" as those who "produce nothing" and "are just there...", I think I am allowed to take offense, as everyone should. It's just pure racist bilge and it bothers me: Yes, Palestine has unfortunate geographical shortcomings that cause the region to be less developed than our own, but 1) That is not a result of lesser peoples, as you seem to imply, and 2) It is simply a gross generalization to imply that the entire race of Palestinians "produce nothing." I have worked with enough brilliant Palestinian scientists and economists (who, incidentally, also want peace at any cost) to know that much. These Palestinians have produced more than you ever will.

N.B. Ladywiththespinninghead, you are a much larger person than I to be able to resist smacking that lob of his. I salute you


[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 03-29-2002).]
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Old 03-29-2002, 07:48 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
When you characterize an entire "band of people" as those who "produce nothing" and "are just there...", I think I am allowed to take offense, as everyone should.
That comment was very disturbing to me also.

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