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Old 03-17-2008, 09:46 PM   #106
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think that Obama supporters rationalising and defending the sentiment of Wright makes for great fodder against them in an election season.
Exactly.

Clinton and McCain will steer clear of this subject, but I can see the 527 groups' propaganda ads already:

-- Photos of Obama not holding his hand over his heart during the national anthem, followed by the clip of Michelle Obama saying what she said about being proud of America for the first time, ending with the rantings of this idiotic preacher --

All of bunch of bullshit, of course, but the impression it creates might be enough to tip the scales, especially in the South, where Obama's lock on 90% of the black vote might be overwhelmed by a fired up conservative white block which isn't very enthusiastic with McCain at the moment.

As Wanderer says above, having Obama's supporters defend Wright while Obama himself criticizes him can't be helpful to the campaign (another 527 ad: that photo of the Obama campaign office with the Che flag, followed by interviews with Obama supporters saying Rev. Wright is right)

Clinton will no doubt make that case to the undecided superdelegates, saying that while Obama is still an "unknown", Hillary at least has some kind of advantage in that nothing new and ugly will come out about her between now and November (her supporters hope).

I heard that Wright is out of the country right now, but I can't find anything online confirming it. Good thing if he is, any interviews with him right now will only keep this going.

For the record, here is Obama's condemnation of Wright's remarks:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...my_church.html

Is this good enough for you?

Is Obama simply covering his rear? How could he be so close to Wright and not know about his "disparaging" opinions?

On the other hand, why is McCain getting a free pass from his association with Hagee, who has made similarly "appalling" remarks? Maybe McCain's suicidal criticism of Falwell and Robertson in 2000 has endeared him to the secular media?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2000/02/29/bush.2.t_9.php

This ridiculous "controversy" proves that the US campaign season is far too long. 24-hour news channels and failing newspapers (and bored Interferencers like me) love this crap. Denver can't come soon enough.
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Old 03-17-2008, 10:20 PM   #107
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Then why assign a state of mind a color?


white privilege.
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Old 03-17-2008, 10:21 PM   #108
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Wright shouldn't really have anything to do with a discussion of Obama's politics; I think that Obama supporters rationalising and defending the sentiment of Wright makes for great fodder against them in an election season.


some of us are just trying to understand Wright, and understand that he comes from a world that, yes, does exist, and yes, it does bother white people.

but we also understand that this isn't good news for the Obama campaign. but we're also a bit dismayed at how this is playing out in a media that supposedly has only offered to fluff Obama's pillow up until now.
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Old 03-17-2008, 10:44 PM   #109
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Obama doesn't have to worry, he has 'insufficient negritude' to be tied to those views. But I would think that Hillary and McCain have no problem with Obama supporters playing the race card on whites that are made uneasy by Wrights sentiments.
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Old 03-17-2008, 11:22 PM   #110
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Obama doesn't have to worry, he has 'insufficient negritude' to be tied to those views. But I would think that Hillary and McCain have no problem with Obama supporters playing the race card on whites that are made uneasy by Wrights sentiments.


what about fags who are made uneasy by Falwell/Robertson/Dobson/Hagee/Bob Jones U?

the tyranny of democracy.
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Old 03-17-2008, 11:50 PM   #111
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Just 8% Have Favorable Opinion of Pastor Jeremiah Wright

Monday, March 17, 2008

Pastor Jeremiah Wright, who has become part of the national political dialogue in recent days, is viewed favorably by 8% of voters nationwide. A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 58% have an unfavorable view of the Pastor whose controversial comments have created new challenges for Barack Obama’s Presidential campaign.

Wright was Obama’s Pastor until he retired last month, but Obama has repudiated the preacher’s comments.

Seventy-three percent (73%) of voters say that Wright’s comments are racially divisive. That opinion is held by 77% of White voters and 58% of African-American voters. In addressing the issue, Obama warned against injecting race into the campaign .

Most voters, 56%, said Wright’s comments made them less likely to vote for Obama. That figure includes 44% of Democrats. Just 11% of voters say they are more likely to vote for Obama because of Wright’s comments.

Overall, voters are evenly divided as to whether Obama should resign his membership in the Church—42% say that he should while 40% disagree. White voters, by a 46% to 33% margin, say that Obama should leave the Church. African-American voters, by a 68% to 16% margin, say he should not. Wright retired last month as Pastor of the Church.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:28 AM   #112
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WTF do these people know about pastor Wright?

i know -- i'm going to cut and paste maybe 3 or 4 of your posts, out of 11,450.

and then we'll have a poll

to see what your favorable ratings are.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:46 AM   #113
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Originally posted by Irvine511
WTF do these people know about pastor Wright?


I don't know what any body really knows

all along I have been saying most of us

don't know that much about Obama



but, back to these people

these are from the same pool of people that will be voting in November
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:00 AM   #114
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Originally posted by deep



I don't know what any body really knows

all along I have been saying most of us

don't know that much about Obama



you could start by reading his two books.

i'm not sure what else there is to "know" about Obama. perhaps because the intimate details of his life haven't been part of late night talk shows for decades, we feel as if there's something distant and unknowable about him. or, perhaps he's simply too thoughtful and complex to be contained by a singe soundbyte (she's a bitch! she's a fighter!)

if anything, Obama's refusal to toss Wright under the bus -- as, say, Mitt did to Larry Craig, or Bush did to McCain -- should tell you what you need to know about this man and loyalty. for we have seen just what happens when loyalty, and not competence, is rewarded with political favors.

do you see Wright as having SCOTUS veto power, like that given Dobson? why are we in a rage about Wright's angry comments, but not about Dobson or Falwell or Robertson? isn't the anger slightly more understandable when it comes from a black man who has lived in a time of Jim Crow to rail against what has been, and still is, an oppressive and racist system? isn't this wildly different from pasty white men demonzing minorities, forbidding interracial dating, tossing up pre-fab Freud "explanations" for the existence of sexual minorities, and the all-but-declaration of war on 1.5 billion muslims?

can we not make these distinctions?

is this too complex? is it impossible for us to understand that because Obama might occasionally set foot into a more radicalized world that he, himself, is not actually a radical black separatist?

can we try to think for once? can we get beyond our wildly simple categories of understanding? can we realize that black men can be clean and articulate and angry and calm and love America while hating what it has done to their assigned ethnic group?

what Obama does is reconcile all of these contradictions, and he comes as close as any public figure as i can think of to embodying a genuine american identity, a genuinely 21st century identity, a genuine movement away from the shallow thinking of the 60s -- we're different, but the same, now let's hold hands and sing on a mountaintop and drink Coke -- and into a nuanced understanding of identity as something that's simultaneously inherited and yet DIY? maybe Obama can nod along and speak an "amen" at many of Wright's speeches, and then walk out and still be cool as a cucumber, thoughtful as all get out, and as eloquent as Wright is incendiary.

can we do this? can we be adults?



Quote:
but, back to these people

these are from the same pool of people that will be voting in November

guess not.
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:37 AM   #115
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Quote:
do you see Wright as having SCOTUS veto power, like that given Dobson? why are we in a rage about Wright's angry comments, but not about Dobson or Falwell or Robertson? isn't the anger slightly more understandable when it comes from a black man who has lived in a time of Jim Crow to rail against what has been, and still is, an oppressive and racist system? isn't this wildly different from pasty white men demonzing minorities, forbidding interracial dating, tossing up pre-fab Freud "explanations" for the existence of sexual minorities, and the all-but-declaration of war on 1.5 billion muslims?

can we not make these distinctions?
The only distinction that supporters should be making is the one you highlighted of no religious test; no matter how much context and background you want to put onto Wright, his attitudes and his theology (which I agree are nowhere near as relevant as the sway held over the GOP by socially totalitarian Christians) those statements alienate the majority. At the end of the day a clip of 'God Damn America' cut together with Obama's statements of support for Wright can influence more people more rapidly than any attempt to frame the comments to make them more palatable (especially if in the process you imply that those middle of the line moderately conservative white Christians that can vote democrat - like in 2006 - are implicitly racist).

The "old politics" of dumping liabilities has that tendency to stick around since it actually work - although Bush not only clings to his liabilities he hands them Presidential Medals of Freedom when they decide to go.
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Old 03-18-2008, 08:13 AM   #116
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Is Barack Obama the only one who should not be judged and labeled a "bigot" because of some things his church and people in his church say, who should not be automatically assumed to believe and endorse the same? That privilege should be extended to everyone, right?



Trying Times for Trinity

Barack Obama's church is under scrutiny. But what's it really like on the inside?
Lisa Miller
NEWSWEEK
Updated: 3:11 PM ET Mar 15, 2008

The year was 1971, race riots flared across the country, and on the South Side of Chicago a tiny church was dying. Many blacks, disillusioned by their ministers' failure to bring home the promises of the civil-rights movement, were abandoning Christianity. They converted to Islam or Judaism or fringe sects—or refused to go to church at all. This particular congregation was looking for a pastor to lead them through these troubling times, and before they launched their search, they wrote a blue-sky description of the community they wanted to be: we want to "serve as instruments of God and church," the statement said, and we want to "elimin[ate] those things in our culture that lead to the dehumanization of persons." They wanted to be Christian, in other words. And they wanted to keep fighting.

On New Year's Eve, the search committee interviewed its final candidate. Jeremiah Wright Jr. was a young pastor enrolled at the University of Chicago Divinity School. Wright belonged to a group of black intellectuals who embraced "black liberation theology," the idea that blacks shouldn't have to choose between "Malcolm and Martin," as the theologians put it. They could be Christian and black; they could be black and proud. When Barack Obama responded to the altar call at Trinity United Church of Christ in 1988, he was responding, in part, to that message.

Wright built Trinity into a huge church, with 8,500 people coming to worship on Sundays. Earlier this month, after a yearlong transition, Wright handed his pulpit over to the young and charismatic pastor Otis Moss III. In his heyday, Wright was a forceful presence, calling for divestment from South Africa as early as 1983. By keeping the problem of racism alive with provocative sermons, Wright encouraged his flock to "speak truth to power" and to always identify, like Jesus, with the marginalized of society. In the context of Trinity's South Side neighborhood, where about 20 percent of residents are on welfare and the same number are unemployed, the church and its messenger were rarely controversial.

But now, in the larger context of Obama's run for the Democratic nomination, they are. Last Thursday, snippets of a few of Wright's more incendiary sermons circulated online, including one in which the pastor calls out Hillary Clinton for being part of the white establishment—"Hillary ain't never been called a n–––––"—and another in which the pastor says, "God damn America … for killing innocent people." He also calls the 9/11 attacks "America's chickens coming home to roost." The next day Obama released a statement about Wright on the Huffington Post. "I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy," he wrote. He said further that he hadn't been in the room when the offending comments were made and that he and his family looked forward to continuing their relationship to the church through its new pastor. Later, a spokesman announced that Wright would no longer serve the campaign in any advisory capacity.

Still, the clips triggered unease among whites, reopened divisions within the black community and provoked politically loaded questions about the nature of Obama's relationship with Wright. Obama has said he found his Christianity at Trinity, and he credits the title of his book "The Audacity of Hope" to a sermon he heard Wright preach. Wright married the Obamas and baptized both their children. But the senator has tried throughout his campaign to distance himself from some of Wright's more controversial statements, notably Wright's praise of Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan. (Wright is like "an old uncle who sometimes will say things I don't agree with," Obama has said.) When pressed, Obama said at the last Democratic debate that he would reject and denounce Farrakhan's inflammatory rhetoric.

Always a volatile combination, race and politics is particularly vexing for Obama, who, with his message of unity, hopes to transcend it all. The Wright and Farrakhan controversies force voters to look at Obama through the lens of their racial or cultural identity, and in a tightly contested race, Obama can't afford to alienate anybody. The question for him now is whether his connection to Wright will hurt his ability to appeal to the best in people.

Wright declined to be interviewed, but on a recent Sunday morning between services, Moss spoke to NEWSWEEK. Trinity has been mischaracterized by the press, he says: the church is "very much in the traditional vein of the African-American church. Caring for seniors, loving our young people, and the focus on Christ and the cross is central to this church."

Trinity was founded in 1961, the first black church in the United Church of Christ. (UCC members are Congregationalists, mainline Protestants who trace their history to John Cotton and the Puritans of New England.) The earliest members of Trinity were "teachers, people with middle-class jobs, resistant to doing anything radical in terms of justice," says church historian Julia Speller, a professor at Chicago Theological Seminary and a member of Trinity. But as the 1970s dawned, values within the church began to change. According to Speller's book "Walkin' the Talk," the congregation was beginning to believe that it couldn't continue to do Christ's work and not speak out against racism and injustice. What Wright gave the congregation, Speller says, was a "sense of beauty about who they were." In 1978, Wright broke ground on a new sanctuary big enough to hold 900 people. In 1994, he built the existing one, which seats 2,500.

As a leader, Wright defied convention at every turn. In an interview with the Chicago Tribune last year, he recalled a time during the 1970s when the UCC decided to ordain gay and lesbian clergy. At its annual meeting, sensitive to the historic discomfort some blacks have with homosexuality, gay leaders reached out to black pastors. At that session, Wright heard the testimony of a gay Christian and, he said, he had a conversion experience on gay rights. He started one of the first AIDS ministries on the South Side and a singles group for Trinity gays and lesbians—a subject that still rankles some of the more conservative Trinity members, says Dwight Hopkins, a theology professor at the University of Chicago and a church member.

Barack Obama walked into Trinity when he was 27. He was a secular person, raised by a mother who would now be called "spiritual, not religious." According to "The Audacity of Hope," he realized that his secular upbringing was hurting his work as a community organizer. It was keeping him at a distance from the religious people he was trying to help. In "Dreams From My Father," Obama describes the feeling he had when he heard Wright preach: "I imagined the stories of ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lion's den, Ezekiel's field of dry bones. Those stories—of survival, and freedom, and hope—became our story, my story."

In the African-American church tradition, pastors rely frequently on the stories of the Old Testament—stories of liberation and struggle—to reach their people. "The Audacity to Hope," the Wright sermon that so inspired Obama, is a discussion of the Biblical character Hannah, who, though she was barren, prayed for a child. Wright uses Hannah as a metaphor for the black people who pray for deliverance even though it seems unattainable.

Friends of the church like to speculate about what, exactly, drew Obama in. Hopkins thinks it's the erudition of the preachers. "Historically, African-American churches have had a strong anti-intellectual bent. There's a saying, 'Too much learning blocks the burning.' Trinity has the learning and the burning." But Melissa Harris-Lacewell thinks it's something else, a connection to the black experience that Obama lacked as a child. "I really see Trinity for Barack as being part of his continuing adult choice to be a black man," says Harris-Lacewell, who attended Trinity for a time and is now a professor at Princeton.

In the lobby before the 11 o'clock service on a recent Sunday, people mingle, chatter, hug and kiss. In the sanctuary, the 300-member gospel choir is overpowering; the soloists outclass anything on "American Idol." When Moss, who is 37, starts preaching, the congregation rises to its feet. On this particular Sunday, Moss exhorts the congregation to pause when it can and, like Moses' sister, Miriam, praise God for its blessings. "Excuse me," he shouts, "I just have to praise the Lord." A generation younger than Wright, Moss does not have the same rough edges. A former track star, he peppers his sermons with references to athletes and hip-hop artists; his mission, he says, is to reach out to the young people on the South Side who are unchurched.

Neither Moss nor anyone connected with the church will distance themselves publicly from Wright—nor will they rebuke their pastor for praising Farrakhan. (Last week, while commentators were calling Wright a "racialist," the black church community stood by him. "Some of us wish we had the nerve that Jeremiah had," says James Forbes, senior minister emeritus of Riverside Church in Manhattan.) Last fall, in an article in a magazine linked to Trinity, Wright lauded Farrakhan as a giant of the African-American religious experience. On the South Side, where all religious leaders are committed to keeping black men off drugs and out of prison, they have to work together, explains Moss. "We approach all people with unconditional love," Moss tells NEWSWEEK. "[Farrakhan] is a neighbor in our community."

Trinity members point out that Obama is not the first presidential candidate to have an alliance with a controversial minister, nor is he the first to have a connection, however tenuous, to Farrakhan. In 1996, while running for re-election, Bill Clinton sent out a mass mailing to friends and prospective donors—including one to the Nation of Islam. In it, he invited Claudette Muhammad, who at the time was chief of protocol, to be on his steering committee. "It is my way of saying thank you for your past friendship and it is my way of asking you to join me in this new campaign," he wrote. Muhammad reprinted the letter in a memoir; a spokesman for Clinton declined to comment.

A member of Trinity since she was a teenager, Speller, of the Chicago Theological Seminary, is anguished over the scrutiny her church is facing. When asked whether there's a double standard at her church about hate talk—is hate talk OK when directed at some groups, but not at others?—she pauses. The context here is Farrakhan, but in light of Wright's video clips, her answer fits: "Is there an assumption that because of the hate talk, nothing good can come from him? And if there is that assumption, is it a fair assumption?" Fair or not, it's one Barack Obama is going to have to contend with.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:47 PM   #117
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Both blacks and whites benefit from pitting one against the other......

The last democratic convention depressed me because the entire focus was on this:

"Such leaders keep blacks dependent on government support by fixing them on the notion that they are helpless victims of racism, that racism is solely to account for their problems, and that their problems will disappear when society fixes itself.
Go ahead and find an example of the aforementioned "leaders" ever discussing strategies of self-help for blacks. They rarely do, and when forced to address it the resulting "eggshell walk" is always both frustrating and amusing. And why? Because if Jesse, Cornel, Skip, Sharpton, and their ilk actually offered constructive criticism and strategies for self-help to the problems of the black underclass, they would be dropped by many blacks (genuinely) and white liberals (publicly), and lose their power and influence."

It's even worse when white folks are the ones saying, "poor you'!

-The stuff in quotes came from an Amazon book review of Shelby Steele's, "The content of our character".
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:27 PM   #118
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Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people.
Hillary can never know that. Hillary ain't never been called a nigger.

Hillary is married to Bill. And Bill have been good to us. No, he ain't. Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.
The government gives him the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law, and then wants us to sing "God Bless America." No, no, no. Not God bless America. God damn America. That's in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating us citizens as less than human.

We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed in Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon. And we never batted an eye. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans. And now we are indignant, because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back into our own front yard.

This hatred against the Clintons in a black church is really disappointing.

Is this the type of Sunday service you want children to hear?

The Clintons, in particular Bill took it on the chin for his support of the black community.

Why are Jesse Jackson's wife and son still supporting Hillary?
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:56 AM   #119
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Is Jeremiah Wright affecting Obama's poll numbers?

Today Gallup says Clinton is leading 47 percent to Obama's 45 percent.

Updated at 9:30 p.m.

Sen. Barack Obama hit 50 percent to Hillary Clinton's 44 percent last week in Gallup's daily tracking poll. It was the largest advantage either contestant has had in the race since late February, according to Gallup.

Then Pastor-Gate went viral on Friday. And Obama's numbers have been steadily declining (while his negatives have ticked up). And today Gallup says Clinton is leading 47 percent to Obama's 45 percent. While not statistically significant, Clinton's two percentage point advantage in today's report is a notable shift from last week, the pollster says.

A separate pollster, Rasmussen, also finds the controversy is hurting Obama. And offers a jaw-dropping statistic. Only 8 percent of Americans have a favorable opinion of Obama pastor Jeremiah Wright.

The pollster also found that most voters, 56 percent, said Wright's comments (which included damning America) made them less likely to vote for Obama. The number includes 44 percent of Democrats.

Two-thirds of voters said they had heard about Wright and the controversy.
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Old 03-19-2008, 02:24 PM   #120
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^

http://www.reuters.com/article/polit...rpc=22&sp=true

Obama's lead over Clinton narrows: Reuters poll

By Steve Holland

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democrat Barack Obama's big national lead over Hillary Clinton has all but evaporated in the U.S. presidential race, and both Democrats trail Republican John McCain, according a Reuters/Zogby poll released on Wednesday.

The poll showed Obama had only a statistically insignificant lead of 47 percent to 44 percent over Clinton, down sharply from a 14 point edge he held over her in February when he was riding the tide of 10 straight victories.

Illinois Sen. Obama, who would be America's first black president, has been buffeted by attacks in recent weeks from New York Sen. Clinton over his fitness to serve as commander-in-chief and by a tempest over racially charged sermons given by his Chicago preacher.

The poll showed Arizona Sen. McCain, who has clinched the Republican presidential nomination, is benefiting from the lengthy campaign battle between Obama and Clinton, who are now battling to win Pennsylvania on April 22.

McCain leads 46 percent to 40 percent in a hypothetical matchup against Obama in the November presidential election, according to the poll.

That is a sharp turnaround from the Reuters/Zogby poll from last month, which showed in a head-to-head matchup that Obama would beat McCain 47 percent to 40 percent.

"The last couple of weeks have taken a toll on Obama and in a general election match-up, on both Democrats," said pollster John Zogby.

Matched up against Clinton, McCain leads 48 percent to 40 percent, narrower than his 50 to 38 percent advantage over her in February.

"It's not surprising to me that McCain's on top because there is disarray and confusion on the Democratic side," Zogby said

Obama gave a speech on Tuesday rebuking his pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, for sermons sometimes laced with inflammatory tirades but said he could not disown him and it was time for Americans to bind the country's racial wounds.

The poll showed Obama continues to have strong support from the African-American community but that he is experiencing some slippage among moderates and independents.

Among independents, McCain led for the first time in the poll, 46 percent to 36 percent over Obama.

He was behind McCain by 21 percent among white voters.

Zogby attributed this to a combination of the fallout from Clinton's victory in Ohio earlier this month and the controversy over Wright's sermons.

"And, just the closer he gets to the nomination, the tougher questions whites ask about an African-American candidate," Zogby said.

The March 13-14 poll surveyed 525 likely Democratic primary voters for the matchup between Clinton and Obama. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 4.4 percentage points.

For the matchup between McCain and his Democratic rivals, 1004 likely voters were surveyed. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.2 percentage points.
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