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Old 04-12-2005, 02:47 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


you also point out so-called discriminatory practices in the military. height requirements for airforce pilots. such standards set a bar, of sorts, of what is requried for performance.

if you could demonstrate to me that being gay disqualifies a pilot from dropping bombs on Baghdad, i'd love to hear exactly how.
I never said being gay would disqualify ppl from doing anything. My concern of gays is more from a "logistical" point of view. I will use this illustration to explain:


I have 13 years experience as an Air Force First Sergeant. The First Sergeant, as the representative for the Commander for all enlisted matters in the unit is the primary individual who would have to make any new policy work. I can foresee the scenario going something like this:

Commander: Well, Top, the new policy is in effect. From now on it's "Don't Ask, but You can Tell." It's up to us to try and make the new policy work.

First Sergeant: Should be no problem, sir. After all, I can't see where being gay would affect anyone's duty performance.

Commander: That's the attitude! I'll leave it in your hands to make it work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Airman Jones: Sir, I've got a problem.

First Sergeant: What's up, Jones?

Airman Jones: It's my roommate. He's Airman Thompson.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Jones: Well, he's gay, Sir. He told me so.

First Sergeant: We briefed you on the new policy. Gay service people are no different from anyone else. Airman Thompson does just as good a job as you do.

Airman Jones: Yes sir, but he keeps staring at me when I shower or change clothes and stuff. It's really creeping me out.

First Sergeant: I can see how that might bother you. I'll have a talk with him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Later, that same day)

First Sergeant: Airman Thompson, we've got a problem.

Airman Thompson: Yes sir?

First Sergeant: Your roommate claims that you keep staring at him when he undresses. He feels uncomfortable with this.

Airman Thompson: Oh, no sir! I'm not looking at him. He's not even my type.

First Sergeant: Okay. Just do me and your roommate a favor. When he undresses, make sure you look in another direction. Give his privacy rights a little break, okay?

Airman Thompson: Sure sir! No problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(Five days later)

First Sergeant: We've got a problem, Jones. Your NCOIC says this is the 2nd time you've been late for work this week. What's going on?

Airman Jones: I'm sorry sir, but I can't sleep at night. Now, every time I even reach for my zipper, Airman Thompson stares at me and gives me a "wolf-whistle." I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm about ready to smack him.

First Sergeant: No. No. You can't do that. I'll have another talk with him. Don't you even think about harming him. Got it?

Airman Jones: <glumly> Yes, sir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Later)

First Sergeant: Thompson, your roommate claims you've been staring and whistling at him. That's sexual harassment, and we won't tolerate it. Understand?

Airman Thompson: I haven't been looking or whistling! He's just lying because he doesn't like homosexuals! Most people in the military don't like us, and they'll lie in a heartbeat!

First Sergeant: Look, you're not the only one that I'm having a problem with in implementing this policy. How about if I move you into a room all by yourself?

Airman Thompson: Sure!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Two weeks later)

Commander: First Sergeant, we've just received an Inspector General Complaint. It claims that you've given all the homosexuals in the squadron a private room?

First Sergeant: Yes, sir. There were some serious problems developing between them and their heterosexual roommates. I thought it best to get them split up before someone got hurt.

Commander: I understand, but we can't give them special privileges. We don't have enough space to give everyone a single room, and you can't single out the homosexuals as getting a benefit that isn't available to the others. Now, fix it!

First Sergeant: Yes, sir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Airman Pizaz: Airman Tippy is my girlfriend.

First Sergeant: That's nice. What can I do for you.

Airman Pizaz: Well, she wants to room with me.

First Sergeant: (spitting coffee) You know we can't room a male and female together in the barracks.

Airman Pizaz: Why not? You roomed Airman Thompson and Airman Eckers together.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Pizaz: Come on, Shirt! Everyone knows they're going together. If Thompson gets to room with his boyfriend, how come I can't room with my girlfriend?

First Sergeant: Well.....I guess that makes sense. Okay, I'll approve it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Two weeks later)

Commander: (Storming into office, blowing steam out of his ears) What in the Hell are you doing, First Sergeant?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: (Face turning blue) The Wing has just received a slew of Congressional Complaints about you from concerned parents! It appears as if you are allowing their young sons and daughters to shack up in my barracks. Is that true?

First Sergeant: Well, yes Sir....but.....

Commander: (Having a kiniption) No buts!!!!!!! Not in my Air Force!!!!!! People don't shack up in Military Barracks!! Is that clear???

First Sergeant: Yes Sir.

Commander: (Jumping up and down) Fix this, now!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


First Sergeant (Thinking): How in the World do I fix this?

(After much thought)

I know! I'll room male homosexuals with female heterosexuals, and female homosexuals with male heterosexuals!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Commander: (Blood pressure rising like a steam boiler) First Sergeant, what in the blazes is going on in my squadron?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: Every single male in the barracks now claims he's homosexual, and wants to move in with a heterosexual female!

First Sergeant: Well, Sir, I guess the studies were wrong. Maybe it is possible for one to change their sexual orientation.
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Old 04-12-2005, 03:01 PM   #122
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i thought you had to be at least 18 to join the military.
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Old 04-12-2005, 03:10 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abomb-baby


I never said being gay would disqualify ppl from doing anything. My concern of gays is more from a "logistical" point of view. I will use this illustration to explain:


I have 13 years experience as an Air Force First Sergeant. The First Sergeant, as the representative for the Commander for all enlisted matters in the unit is the primary individual who would have to make any new policy work. I can foresee the scenario going something like this:

Commander: Well, Top, the new policy is in effect. From now on it's "Don't Ask, but You can Tell." It's up to us to try and make the new policy work.

First Sergeant: Should be no problem, sir. After all, I can't see where being gay would affect anyone's duty performance.

Commander: That's the attitude! I'll leave it in your hands to make it work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Airman Jones: Sir, I've got a problem.

First Sergeant: What's up, Jones?

Airman Jones: It's my roommate. He's Airman Thompson.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Jones: Well, he's gay, Sir. He told me so.

First Sergeant: We briefed you on the new policy. Gay service people are no different from anyone else. Airman Thompson does just as good a job as you do.

Airman Jones: Yes sir, but he keeps staring at me when I shower or change clothes and stuff. It's really creeping me out.

First Sergeant: I can see how that might bother you. I'll have a talk with him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Later, that same day)

First Sergeant: Airman Thompson, we've got a problem.

Airman Thompson: Yes sir?

First Sergeant: Your roommate claims that you keep staring at him when he undresses. He feels uncomfortable with this.

Airman Thompson: Oh, no sir! I'm not looking at him. He's not even my type.

First Sergeant: Okay. Just do me and your roommate a favor. When he undresses, make sure you look in another direction. Give his privacy rights a little break, okay?

Airman Thompson: Sure sir! No problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(Five days later)

First Sergeant: We've got a problem, Jones. Your NCOIC says this is the 2nd time you've been late for work this week. What's going on?

Airman Jones: I'm sorry sir, but I can't sleep at night. Now, every time I even reach for my zipper, Airman Thompson stares at me and gives me a "wolf-whistle." I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm about ready to smack him.

First Sergeant: No. No. You can't do that. I'll have another talk with him. Don't you even think about harming him. Got it?

Airman Jones: <glumly> Yes, sir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Later)

First Sergeant: Thompson, your roommate claims you've been staring and whistling at him. That's sexual harassment, and we won't tolerate it. Understand?

Airman Thompson: I haven't been looking or whistling! He's just lying because he doesn't like homosexuals! Most people in the military don't like us, and they'll lie in a heartbeat!

First Sergeant: Look, you're not the only one that I'm having a problem with in implementing this policy. How about if I move you into a room all by yourself?

Airman Thompson: Sure!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Two weeks later)

Commander: First Sergeant, we've just received an Inspector General Complaint. It claims that you've given all the homosexuals in the squadron a private room?

First Sergeant: Yes, sir. There were some serious problems developing between them and their heterosexual roommates. I thought it best to get them split up before someone got hurt.

Commander: I understand, but we can't give them special privileges. We don't have enough space to give everyone a single room, and you can't single out the homosexuals as getting a benefit that isn't available to the others. Now, fix it!

First Sergeant: Yes, sir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Airman Pizaz: Airman Tippy is my girlfriend.

First Sergeant: That's nice. What can I do for you.

Airman Pizaz: Well, she wants to room with me.

First Sergeant: (spitting coffee) You know we can't room a male and female together in the barracks.

Airman Pizaz: Why not? You roomed Airman Thompson and Airman Eckers together.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Pizaz: Come on, Shirt! Everyone knows they're going together. If Thompson gets to room with his boyfriend, how come I can't room with my girlfriend?

First Sergeant: Well.....I guess that makes sense. Okay, I'll approve it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Two weeks later)

Commander: (Storming into office, blowing steam out of his ears) What in the Hell are you doing, First Sergeant?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: (Face turning blue) The Wing has just received a slew of Congressional Complaints about you from concerned parents! It appears as if you are allowing their young sons and daughters to shack up in my barracks. Is that true?

First Sergeant: Well, yes Sir....but.....

Commander: (Having a kiniption) No buts!!!!!!! Not in my Air Force!!!!!! People don't shack up in Military Barracks!! Is that clear???

First Sergeant: Yes Sir.

Commander: (Jumping up and down) Fix this, now!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


First Sergeant (Thinking): How in the World do I fix this?

(After much thought)

I know! I'll room male homosexuals with female heterosexuals, and female homosexuals with male heterosexuals!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Commander: (Blood pressure rising like a steam boiler) First Sergeant, what in the blazes is going on in my squadron?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: Every single male in the barracks now claims he's homosexual, and wants to move in with a heterosexual female!

First Sergeant: Well, Sir, I guess the studies were wrong. Maybe it is possible for one to change their sexual orientation.


when you're ready to be serious again, i'd like to continue the discussion.
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Old 04-12-2005, 03:18 PM   #124
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Oh, is none of this plausible? Why not? I realize it is a bit over the top, but this is a scenario that you can't entirely dismiss. Just give me your thoughts on how you would handle the implementation of a fully integrated military with openly Gay service men and women. And don't give me some quick answer like, "no different than it is now." There are gonna be issues that arise and want to know how you as the commander of your unit, are gonna resolve them.
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Old 04-12-2005, 03:22 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Oh, is none of this plausible? Why not? I realize it is a bit over the top, but this is a scenario that you can't entirely dismiss. Just give me your thoughts on how you would handle the implementation of a fully integrated military with openly Gay service men and women. And don't give me some quick answer like, "no different than it is now." There are gonna be issues that arise and want to know how you as the commander of your unit, are gonna resolve them.
So are you saying that this a huge management problem? Something so big and complicated (unsolvable?), that we may as well not even bother with going on the path to this whole equality thing?
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Old 04-12-2005, 03:25 PM   #126
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thanks for the short answer Judah. My mind is open, but you didn't offer much.
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Old 04-12-2005, 03:29 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Oh, is none of this plausible? Why not? I realize it is a bit over the top, but this is a scenario that you can't entirely dismiss. Just give me your thoughts on how you would handle the implementation of a fully integrated military with openly Gay service men and women. And don't give me some quick answer like, "no different than it is now." There are gonna be issues that arise and want to know how you as the commander of your unit, are gonna resolve them.

we'll start winning the war on terror because all those smart gay people fluent in Arabic who have been discharged will be back doing important intelligence work. you'd also save $200 million.

for starters.

but don't take my word for it: "The old armchair thought that gay people destroy unit camaraderie and cohesion is just wrong," Stout said. "They said the same things when they tried to integrate African-Americans and women into the military." ... "The 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, when it first came out, was a good stepping stone, but it's outlived its usefulness," he said. "We've progressed past it both as a military and as a society."

you can argue over homosexuality for ever, but what is changing the world is the simple witness of people from all backgrounds and walks of life that this is who they are. what social conservatives have to grapple with is that openly gay people are not going away, so let's do the conservative thing and be pragmatic: where do these people fit in? how can they be integrated into family life? how do we acknowledge their citizenship? and, above all else, their humanity?

i want full integration into civil institutions, the same rules, the same principles of responsibility. what do you have? is prejudice strong enough to create a shadow class of people operating somehow in a cultural and social limbo? sorry, but gay people can no longer cooperate - the old conservative politics of homosexuality has disintegrated. if the military wants to survive, if the Catholic church wants to survive, it's got to adapt to a changing world. and this is but one small part, but it's a microcosm of all the seismic cultural changes we've been undergoing that, at it's root, is a direct result of the 20th century which, for all it's horrors and unprecedented bloodshed, has seen the greatest expansion of individual liberty in all of human history.

so what are you left with? older more virulent and prohibitionist methods? get real, and deal with the world as it is, not as you would imagine it should be, and don't assume that military soldiers are incapable of getting past homosexuality.

trust me. it ain't such a thang.
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Old 04-12-2005, 03:34 PM   #128
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Originally posted by Abomb-baby
thanks for the short answer Judah. My mind is open, but you didn't offer much.
Sorry, it wasn't an answer, but some questions. I'm trying to understand your real problems with this. Sometimes it's a "moral" issue, sometimes a logistical one, and sometimes it's your personal rights being overtaken by someone's rights to be equal.
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Old 04-12-2005, 03:35 PM   #129
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**oops...double post**
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Old 04-12-2005, 03:44 PM   #130
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in sum, this is what it comes down to:

when it comes to civil rights, and human rights, it is society that must adapt itself to the individual.

it was probably logistically difficult for those 5 african-american students to go to that white high school in Alabama in the 1950s.

if put up to a vote, neither the citizens of Alabama, the taxpayers in that school zone, nor the students at that school would ever have voted to allow black students to attend.

however, times change. society changes. and people change.

and we're all better for it.
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Old 04-12-2005, 04:00 PM   #131
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Mired in the ignorance of prejudice....stereotyping....and total fear of change.

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Old 04-12-2005, 04:04 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

anyway, it's very simple: your perceived uncomfortableness at being in a shower with someone who might possibly find you attractive -- even though this has probably happened before, and you haven't noticed -- isn't grounds to deny someone their right to military service.
Has the new guy addressed this yet? Between the little plays, the newspaper clippings, and the very strenuous references to morality, I haven't seen whether he truly thinks his "comfort" trumps someone else's civil rights.

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Old 04-12-2005, 04:13 PM   #133
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Can someone tell my how come most of our nato Allies do not ban gays, and their military has managed to survive?
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Old 04-12-2005, 04:20 PM   #134
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Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Oh, is none of this plausible? Why not? I realize it is a bit over the top, but this is a scenario that you can't entirely dismiss. Just give me your thoughts on how you would handle the implementation of a fully integrated military with openly Gay service men and women. And don't give me some quick answer like, "no different than it is now." There are gonna be issues that arise and want to know how you as the commander of your unit, are gonna resolve them.
You breeders are going to be uncomfortable at times. Maybe then you can learn something called "empathy." Fucking heteros make me uncomfortable in life, but I can't whine to my boss every time I think they're looking at me the wrong way. Get over it.

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Old 04-12-2005, 04:21 PM   #135
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I can't believe you guys are still dignifying that garbage with any response at all.

It's time we stopped giving these people a platform from which to spew their prejudices.
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