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Old 04-11-2005, 04:23 PM   #106
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That was completely civil. I and others have answered you.

Want to bet that the MAJORITY of the military did not want blacks when integration began?


Want to bet the feelings were the same about women?
Since when is it the soldiers who run the roost. Sorry, but I do not remember being in the service meaning enlisting into a democracy.

Sorry....

Thank you for your sevice. I have eight years in myself. So what, it makes you more of an expert than myself or any other member of the forum in what?

Nothing, not one thing you have shown counters what the evidence is world wide. The gays in the other services have worked out fine around the world.

And shockingly, as I have pointed out, AMERICANS have not only worked side by side with them, they have been COMMANDED by them.
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Old 04-11-2005, 05:59 PM   #107
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Thats always the answer, isn't it? Get some activist judge involved to further push the liberal agenda.
...

Everyone else has already said it all, so I'll just give a to their posts.

Angela
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Old 04-11-2005, 07:54 PM   #108
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"Morale problems." Maybe they just need to learn how to be more professional. Listening to what special ops people have said about the military in Afghanistan (they would take the time to get to know some civilians to get some info, and the regular military would just come in and start shooting everything upsetting them), I think that's what the military really needs.

Their inability to control their homophobia is only the tip of the iceberg and is symptomatic of a larger problem within the military.

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Old 04-11-2005, 11:42 PM   #109
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This issue seems to be about the Military's policy, not your personal fears of residing with non-outed homsexuals.

The problem stops and ends with the practicing discrimination against outed homosexuals by the Military/state/government.

If you take this context, as the problem, in no way shape or form would your discomfort ever be an issue with the actual discrimination. It is what it is, regardless of what you "feel".

So to answer your question:

"If I am a straight man, why should I have to sleep or shower in the same quarters as someone who may possibly get some gratification in it? "

Thought crimes?

It is of no consequence that you have to reside with someone who may get gratification from it. This happens, as evidenced in this thread, daily, everywhere not only in this country but worldwide. If you go to a doctor's office and have surgery you can be fully naked in front of many men AND women who may or may not find it gratifying, it's not against the law, it's not breaking any rules as long as they don't start touching you.

It's the same notion of some cracker claiming not to want to reside with blacks because he thinks they are subhuman or whatever. It makes no difference in the semantics of the argument, it IS discrimination, period.

If you can accpept this, then it is painfully obvious. If you don't think it's discrimation, then I would guess you are just a homophobe and this discussion is moot. I will give you more credit than that out until shown otherwise.

It would seem, as being in the military, you are an employee of the state, being paid American tax dollars, that you would understand that, of ALL PLACES, discrimination should not exist within the institution of our government. The reason I state this is that the miltary most certainly can not practice this, even if the miltary is afforded other exclusivities as prosecuting in military tribunals and such, they cannot violate the rights of Iraqi's much less gay American SOLDIERS.

"If I am a straight man, why should I have to sleep or shower in the same quarters as someone who may possibly get some gratification in it? "

Your question has the supposition that they would even be attracted to you in the first place. You'd never know unless they made advances towards you. If that were the case, then I am sure it's an infraction of the rules or some laws.

In other words, your rights as an individual are protected, but they aren't guaranteed to keep you in comfort. I am uncomfortable with my fucking asshole neighbors, I can't have them evicted because they were giving me the "goo-goo" eyes.

That is irrelevant anyways. The issue is blatant discrimination.

Women and men do not reside together in the military in the same sense that miltary members can't smoke marijuanna and not expect to get booted out of the military. It's the rule,
there isn't a discrimination case to be made here.

These rules can be questioned, even in the military, as they had to address with blacks and women before. The case being made here is not about your fears, which are the same fears that men had with residing with blacks, jews or any number of "groups."

What is being said here is that your comfort level about roaming eyes is of no consequence if we are all equal in the eyes of the law, much less God. And if that's your best argument, it's my evidence that I am on the clear right side of this issue.
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Old 04-12-2005, 04:02 AM   #110
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As a girl that shares a flat with her best friend, a gay 26-year old guy, I personally am sick and tired of the "poor me"-attitude a lot of gays have.
You guys are nothing, absolutely nothing different that than average straight john or jane doe.
If you keep treating yourself and the gay community as something "special", thus you will be treated. I say, stand up for who you are or keep quiet. I see so many gays that still haven't come out or have only come out to a select group of close friends.
I realize that it's hard and sometimes maybe even dangerous, but I find it pretty ambiguous to hear complaints on the "don't ask, don't tell"-policy of the US Army when there are so many of you that don't even come right out and say it yourselves.

It's like the whole debate on gay marriage, that's recently been approved in Belgium, the bill has passed and gays are now allowed to get married......only to find out a year later that hardly any gay couples actually DID get married.

I realize it's partly a matter of principles and that, in theory, the community wants equality, thus fights for equal rights, whether or not they actually use them, but still...it does seem pretty weird when you look at it from a distance. I mean, having that bill passed, does NOT change the publics opinion on gays. That's what only the gays themselves can change - open up, show who you are and prove people wrong.

Granted, I live in Europe, and people are prettty liberal towards gays (allthough that's been a very recent evolution) so I don't encounter the homo-phobic athmosphere some of you are referring to, it's probably easier for gays here.

Melon, I know you said yourself you were exaggerating on your comments on straight men and the women that fall for them, but sadly...your comments are not *that* exaggerated really, meaning that l hear those comments frequently among my gay friends and I debate with them each and every time. It stumps me that as an "oppressed" group in this society, you don't hesite to project similar, poorly-argumented generalizations "our" way. You should know better and know that it's not as simple as that. I'm not meaning you personally, I'm just stating that I hear it more than I'd like. I am by no means attacking you.

In fact, my friend/roommate and I often have heated debates on this subject. Lol, he calls me the fore-fighter of gay's rights, while I am the very stereotypical straight high-maintenance dolly girl.
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Old 04-12-2005, 07:16 AM   #111
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Granted, I live in Europe, and people are prettty liberal towards gays (allthough that's been a very recent evolution) so I don't encounter the homo-phobic athmosphere some of you are referring to, it's probably easier for gays here.

actually i lived in Europe for a while -- in brussels (you people certainly know how to do beer ... i miss it so). and it's interesting ... there is a very american tendency to debate social issues and "moral" issues in a very public way that doesn't seem to the be the custom in europe. european public discourse, in my experience, seems to be about the practical thing to do, the possible thing to do, with an emphasis on process. issues like gay marriage are simply more about legal rights than a debate about the essence of marriage, or the purpose of marriage, or whatever, like you see in the US. one is neither better nor worse. the european view seems to be, in my opinion, that gay people aren't going anywhere, and they don't harm anyone, so there's no basis to deny anyone the right of marriage.

what this does not translate into, i think, is genuine acceptance and embracing of difference -- again, my impression. what i think you see in the US, simply because it's a much more emotional debate about morals and principles and what is "right," is you get people who live in the major cities where gay culture is very vibrant and very much an integral part of the fabric of the city in a way that i didn't see in most of the european countries i visited -- exceptions being London and Amsterdam. again, my impression. so in the US, you tend to have wildly different attitudes -- you can get violently homophobic cities and towns -- and politicians who feel as if they can and must speak to this population -- but also cities and towns where no one even bats an eyelash at a gay couple in a restaurant or holding hands in a park or even kissing in public, where openly gay people serve at all levels of the city government, and the gay population is as much a special interest group, politically, as african-americans or hispanics. heck, in DC, even the Republicans support gay marriage.

i suppose what i'm saying is that, like so many things in the US, life is very amped up. you could be a near suicidal gay kid at a high school in North Dakota where you hear anti-gay hate speach blaring out of the car radio each and every day. or you could live in Santa Fe, New Mexico or Northampton, Massachusetts and not give your sexuality much of a second thought.

these are just my impressions. i'd love to hear more about what goes on in Europe in regards to all this.
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Old 04-12-2005, 07:31 AM   #112
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Melon, I know you said yourself you were exaggerating on your comments on straight men and the women that fall for them, but sadly...your comments are not *that* exaggerated really, meaning that l hear those comments frequently among my gay friends and I debate with them each and every time. It stumps me that as an "oppressed" group in this society, you don't hesite to project similar, poorly-argumented generalizations "our" way. You should know better and know that it's not as simple as that. I'm not meaning you personally, I'm just stating that I hear it more than I'd like. I am by no means attacking you.


you are absolutely right. the one difference, though, is that these poorly-argumented generalizations are encoded into law in many US states, and i assume some European countries, and weilded as legitimate tools of oppression. while the blueprint of your argument is correct, i think that in reality, there is the simple fact that gay people are discriminated against by straight people. there is a very real cost to these poorly-argued generalizations to gay people, whereas when a gay person does the same thing to a straight person, the only repercussions are theoretica.

like any community, gays can be as blinkered in their worldview as anyone else. i think that most comments on "breeders" or whatever are made in jest, but there shouldn't be a working assumption about the superiority of homosexuality, just as there shouldn't be a working assumption about the essential morality of heterosexuality in the mind of a straight man. and this applies to ALL groups of people who's member's wrap themselves up in the form of an identity, but miss it's essence -- and this is also EXACTLY what i was trying to get at in the "labels and stereotypes" thread i started yesterday.

there are black people who are racist.
there are gay people who are heterophobic.
etc, etc.

it's the whole, "so you become a monster/ so the monster will not break you."

it's absolutely true. be better than those who would do you harm, don't become their reflection in the mirror.
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Old 04-12-2005, 08:40 AM   #113
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Originally posted by the soul waits
Melon, I know you said yourself you were exaggerating on your comments on straight men and the women that fall for them, but sadly...your comments are not *that* exaggerated really, meaning that l hear those comments frequently among my gay friends and I debate with them each and every time. It stumps me that as an "oppressed" group in this society, you don't hesite to project similar, poorly-argumented generalizations "our" way. You should know better and know that it's not as simple as that. I'm not meaning you personally, I'm just stating that I hear it more than I'd like. I am by no means attacking you.
Thanks for the comments. I don't see it as an attack; just your observation.

I find it curious, because, frankly, I don't hang out with any gay people, really. It's not on purpose; it's just the way it is where I'm currently living. So I find it interesting that my "bitterness" has extended elsewhere without me knowing.

Thinking about it, I'm not surprised. Every minority group resents having their lives dictated to them by an outside "majority." I mean, look at how bitter black society is at times? I don't blame them for resenting white people sticking their nose in on a regular basis and then telling them what they can or cannot do. How is it their right? I already know that white society would have a temper tantrum if blacks or Hispanics started telling them what they can or cannot do, and the KKK, suddenly, would have a huge resurgence.

The fact is, "stereotypes" are easier to mold arguments. Unfortunately, it's true. The fact is, I hate those who fit into that "conservative breeder" stereotype. The ones who think that our rights should be up to a vote, since they know that a vote amongst the other breeders would deny us the rights. And I hate them. I hate them all. It is not their fucking right to tell us what we can or cannot do, since they are not one of us.

And the fact remains that these "Defense of Marriage" acts here garner around 60%-70% voter passage each time. So I guess a more appropriate thing for me to say is that I hope 60%-70% of voters die a slow, horrible death, because I hate them all.

There's nuance for you.

Melon
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Old 04-12-2005, 08:42 AM   #114
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Thank you for the replies, Irvine, I'm new to this forum and kinda just jumped on this topic.
Thank you for clarifying the different emphasizes on a debate-level, when is comes to gay marriage and what not. I see the difference, allthough I don't understand the nature of it. Why is Europe so different from the US in that regard? Why do emotions play as big a part as they do in the debates there? That is suprising to me.

What I see in Belgium (I cannot speak for the whole of Europe) is that it's become better and more accepted the last 10 years. Most gays I know are very relaxed about it, have hetero guy friends as well as woman friends, just like any other person.
I perceive it to be more of a taboo the more you travel South in Europe, where catholicism is pretty pre-dominant (not knocking catholicism here, I'm religious myself) and people tend to be more narrow-minded.

However, and I know this firsthand from my flatmate, in the professional life, gays tend to not take too many risks and keep their sexuality on the down-low during the process of appyling for a job. Of course, this depends on the field (I suspect that more artistic work-environments would be more openminded), and the corporate world is still a testosterone-world (to which any business woman can attest) in the upper-ranks anyway, so that's why many choose to keep it a secret.
Is that discrimination? One could say so. On the other hand, when I apply for a job, I paint a rosy, non-conflict-provocative picture of myself as well, and I play my part.

A lot of people judge other people and that's a sad sad fact. My lifestyle is very far away from what conservatives perceive as ideal and I take slack for it when I choose to come forward about certain aspects about me, but I can take it. It's not a big deal. I choose what I reveil and what I keep for myself and those close to me.
Melon, you say you hate those people. I say, don't let them rent space in your head, they are not worth it. Simple as that.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:08 AM   #115
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you are absolutely right. the one difference, though, is that these poorly-argumented generalizations are encoded into law in many US states, and i assume some European countries, and weilded as legitimate tools of oppression. while the blueprint of your argument is correct, i think that in reality, there is the simple fact that gay people are discriminated against by straight people. there is a very real cost to these poorly-argued generalizations to gay people, whereas when a gay person does the same thing to a straight person, the only repercussions are theoretica.

Yes, true on a general level society-wise. But when you take this statement and translate it to how people interact socially in the personal atmosphere, I believe it's equally disturbing for both parties.

like any community, gays can be as blinkered in their worldview as anyone else. i think that most comments on "breeders" or whatever are made in jest, but there shouldn't be a working assumption about the superiority of homosexuality, just as there shouldn't be a working assumption about the essential morality of heterosexuality in the mind of a straight man. and this applies to ALL groups of people who's member's wrap themselves up in the form of an identity, but miss it's essence -- and this is also EXACTLY what i was trying to get at in the "labels and stereotypes" thread i started yesterday.

I totally agree.

there are black people who are racist.
there are gay people who are heterophobic.
etc, etc.

it's the whole, "so you become a monster/ so the monster will not break you."

it's absolutely true. be better than those who would do you harm, don't become their reflection in the mirror.
Yes, and on that note : the best revenge to those who want to break you, is to live well and stand tall.

Ps. As I reread this post, I see that I have done the quoting thing rather poorly. There are replies to bits of your posts in the white square, Irvine; sorry.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:08 AM   #116
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Thank you for the replies, Irvine, I'm new to this forum and kinda just jumped on this topic.
Thank you for clarifying the different emphasizes on a debate-level, when is comes to gay marriage and what not. I see the difference, allthough I don't understand the nature of it. Why is Europe so different from the US in that regard? Why do emotions play as big a part as they do in the debates there? That is suprising to me.
i don't know for certain the root of these differences, but it's something i've observed. i think that there might be much less cultural cohesion in the United States due mostly to its history as a nation of immigrants and the country's enormous diversity, especially when compared to Europe. yes, Europe is more diverse now than it has ever been, but most European nations remain over 90% caucasian, whereas in the US it's now less than 75% and dwindling. the result, i think, is that Americans need to be very vocal about their beliefs and their passions -- it's why Americans need overt displays of patriotism, like the singing of the national anthem at baseball games or waving of flags. there's simply not a need for this in Europe -- again, all my impressions -- because a Belgian has a much clearer idea of what it means to be Belgian, just like a German has a clear idea of what it means to be German, than any American has of what it means to be an American. our country is young, we have no "myth of orgin," and as such identity is always hotly contested and very public.

the reason why i think that, today, Europe is much more socially liberal and tolerant, as a whole, than the United States -- and one of the reasons why i love to visit and would be open to the idea of living in Europe again -- is that this sense of culture is so powerful that it is able to incorporate difference rather easily. you might be gay, but you're also French, and ultimately it is the best interests of the culture for us to find a way for you to be both gay and French.

does that make sense? people often use the Netherlands. i think i might be a mistake to assume that Dutch people are more enlightened than the rest of us. while i adore the country, and most Dutch people i've met, logic tells me that Dutch people are human, and therefore can be as idiotic as anyone else. the reason, i believe, that the Dutch are so famously tolerant comes from pragmatism. it's a very, very densely populated country, and there's got to be a way for everyone to get along. so this calm, rational approach towards accepting difference, at least from a legal standpoint, is simply the best way for the culture and the country to continue to evolve while retaining what we might call essentially Dutch.

that's my supposition. anyone else? did i offend any French, Dutch, or Belgian? was not my intention to do so ... just tossing out my observations.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:24 AM   #117
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While I am Belgian, I know quite a lot of Dutch people and agree with you mostly. I don't think they are all necessarily very enlightened, but the government is indeed pretty pragmatic, straight-forward, liberal and solution-oriented.

Belgians, on the other hand, tend to lose themselves in a yap-fest, hence not getting anywhere on a practical level. The new generation of politicians is slightly better, though.

I see why the US government might feel threatened by the merging of so many cultures but, from a distance, the ironic remark that comes to mind is that it's pretty funny when they act so superior to the rest of the world.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:42 AM   #118
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I see why the US government might feel threatened by the merging of so many cultures but, from a distance, the ironic remark that comes to mind is that it's pretty funny when they act so superior to the rest of the world.

it's not the government that feels threatened, is that there's no clear sense of what is and what isn't American. there are certain symbols that we gravitate towards -- the flag, baseball, apple pie, Main Street, etc. -- but the culture is far more fragmented than what i've encountered in Europe. not that one is better, or more complex, or more nuanced, than the other -- they're just different.

as for acting superior ... beats me. the hypocrisy of the powerful, i suppose. i'm certainly embarassed by how my country has carried itself in the world these past 5 years or so.
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Old 04-12-2005, 02:08 PM   #119
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It would seem, as being in the military, you are an employee of the state, being paid American tax dollars, that you would understand that, of ALL PLACES, discrimination should not exist within the institution of our government. The reason I state this is that the miltary most certainly can not practice this, even if the miltary is afforded other exclusivities as prosecuting in military tribunals and such, they cannot violate the rights of Iraqi's much less gay American SOLDIERS.

What an absolute load of crap. Discrimination exists all over the government and in all sorts of government agencies. Women in combat, single parents can't join the Air Force, minimum height requirements to be a fighter pilot. You have to have minimum scores on aptitude tests to do certain jobs. Try getting hired in the Secret Service or FBI with ANY arrest on your record, not even a conviction. How about Handicapped ppl? alot of them could do at least 50% of the jobs out there in the military. But again, they are discriminated against. When will people understand that LIFE isn't fair?So again, if my morality says being gay is wrong MORALLY, then oh well, to bad. I will be forced to live and exist with someone whose lifestyle I oppose.My rights are trumped by the gay persons right to not be discriminated against?Why? What makes their rights anymore valid than mine?

And please stop using the blacks in the military and women in the military analogy. General Colin Powell himself fought long and hard to not allow Gays to OPENLY serve. But then again, what the hell does he know about Military life and discrimination? Until you can prove the fact that a gay gene exists, then its not the same as being BORN black or female.

Many here have used the example of Gays serving in the military in other countries around the world. Well, to put it bluntly, we aren't Europe. Our culture is different in America. Alot different, and morality and christian values still holds prominance in many peoples lives in this country(unlike most of Europe). Many say you can't legislate morality. Well, then by the same token you can't discard morality with legislation either.

To be honest, if gays were actually allowed to openly serve I doubt highly that many would even choose to do so. Most would be afraid of retribution from fellow soldiers or supervisors/Commanders for doing so. I think we have a long way to go in this country before the military in the US is gonna allow the closet door to swing wide open. Hell, we have ppl in the military here who never saw a black person until they joined the service.

I know many of you are trying to pigeon hole me as a homophobe, bigot or whatever. You're wrong. I'm not. Get over it.
I have had Gay friends in the past, and I have gay friends now. Do I condone their lifestyle? No. I also don't condone certain practices of my heterosexual friends. But it isn't a show stopper for our frienship. Friends don't have to agree on everything.

And its sooo nice to see how the claws come out around here with words like"homophobe" and "Breeders". I have not used one derogatory term in any of my posts. I guess I see how far some of you extend your notion of "tolerance".
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Old 04-12-2005, 02:30 PM   #120
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So again, if my morality says being gay is wrong MORALLY, then oh well, to bad. I will be forced to live and exist with someone whose lifestyle I oppose.My rights are trumped by the gay persons right to not be discriminated against?Why? What makes their rights anymore valid than mine?

And please stop using the blacks in the military and women in the military analogy. General Colin Powell himself fought long and hard to not allow Gays to OPENLY serve. But then again, what the hell does he know about Military life and discrimination? Until you can prove the fact that a gay gene exists, then its not the same as being BORN black or female.

being gay is as INVOLUNTARY as being born black or female. one has no choice in the matter, and one cannot change one's sexual orientation -- one can choose to live a life of celibacy, or choose to "battle" their orientation, but every single study of ex-gay ministires shows that they have a near universal failure rate.

you have every right to think whatever you want about homosexuality, but you are not free to use your moral convictions to discriminate, in measurable way -- like housing, for example -- against people who are of a different sexual orientation. actually, in many states you still can, however the direction in which we all are moving, and the general status of the world in the 21st century, is that sexual orientation is as innocuous as race, religion, or gender.

you also point out so-called discriminatory practices in the military. height requirements for airforce pilots. such standards set a bar, of sorts, of what is requried for performance.

if you could demonstrate to me that being gay disqualifies a pilot from dropping bombs on Baghdad, i'd love to hear exactly how.
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