wounded, heroic gay soldier too gay to serve

[Abomb-baby]

you also point out so-called discriminatory practices in the military. height requirements for airforce pilots. such standards set a bar, of sorts, of what is requried for performance.

if you could demonstrate to me that being gay disqualifies a pilot from dropping bombs on Baghdad, i'd love to hear exactly how.

I never said being gay would disqualify ppl from doing anything. My concern of gays is more from a "logistical" point of view. I will use this illustration to explain:


I have 13 years experience as an Air Force First Sergeant. The First Sergeant, as the representative for the Commander for all enlisted matters in the unit is the primary individual who would have to make any new policy work. I can foresee the scenario going something like this:

Commander: Well, Top, the new policy is in effect. From now on it's "Don't Ask, but You can Tell." It's up to us to try and make the new policy work.

First Sergeant: Should be no problem, sir. After all, I can't see where being gay would affect anyone's duty performance.

Commander: That's the attitude! I'll leave it in your hands to make it work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Airman Jones: Sir, I've got a problem.

First Sergeant: What's up, Jones?

Airman Jones: It's my roommate. He's Airman Thompson.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Jones: Well, he's gay, Sir. He told me so.

First Sergeant: We briefed you on the new policy. Gay service people are no different from anyone else. Airman Thompson does just as good a job as you do.

Airman Jones: Yes sir, but he keeps staring at me when I shower or change clothes and stuff. It's really creeping me out.

First Sergeant: I can see how that might bother you. I'll have a talk with him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Later, that same day)

First Sergeant: Airman Thompson, we've got a problem.

Airman Thompson: Yes sir?

First Sergeant: Your roommate claims that you keep staring at him when he undresses. He feels uncomfortable with this.

Airman Thompson: Oh, no sir! I'm not looking at him. He's not even my type.

First Sergeant: Okay. Just do me and your roommate a favor. When he undresses, make sure you look in another direction. Give his privacy rights a little break, okay?

Airman Thompson: Sure sir! No problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(Five days later)

First Sergeant: We've got a problem, Jones. Your NCOIC says this is the 2nd time you've been late for work this week. What's going on?

Airman Jones: I'm sorry sir, but I can't sleep at night. Now, every time I even reach for my zipper, Airman Thompson stares at me and gives me a "wolf-whistle." I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm about ready to smack him.

First Sergeant: No. No. You can't do that. I'll have another talk with him. Don't you even think about harming him. Got it?

Airman Jones: <glumly> Yes, sir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Later)

First Sergeant: Thompson, your roommate claims you've been staring and whistling at him. That's sexual harassment, and we won't tolerate it. Understand?

Airman Thompson: I haven't been looking or whistling! He's just lying because he doesn't like homosexuals! Most people in the military don't like us, and they'll lie in a heartbeat!

First Sergeant: Look, you're not the only one that I'm having a problem with in implementing this policy. How about if I move you into a room all by yourself?

Airman Thompson: Sure!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Two weeks later)

Commander: First Sergeant, we've just received an Inspector General Complaint. It claims that you've given all the homosexuals in the squadron a private room?

First Sergeant: Yes, sir. There were some serious problems developing between them and their heterosexual roommates. I thought it best to get them split up before someone got hurt.

Commander: I understand, but we can't give them special privileges. We don't have enough space to give everyone a single room, and you can't single out the homosexuals as getting a benefit that isn't available to the others. Now, fix it!

First Sergeant: Yes, sir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Airman Pizaz: Airman Tippy is my girlfriend.

First Sergeant: That's nice. What can I do for you.

Airman Pizaz: Well, she wants to room with me.

First Sergeant: (spitting coffee) You know we can't room a male and female together in the barracks.

Airman Pizaz: Why not? You roomed Airman Thompson and Airman Eckers together.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Pizaz: Come on, Shirt! Everyone knows they're going together. If Thompson gets to room with his boyfriend, how come I can't room with my girlfriend?

First Sergeant: Well.....I guess that makes sense. Okay, I'll approve it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Two weeks later)

Commander: (Storming into office, blowing steam out of his ears) What in the Hell are you doing, First Sergeant?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: (Face turning blue) The Wing has just received a slew of Congressional Complaints about you from concerned parents! It appears as if you are allowing their young sons and daughters to shack up in my barracks. Is that true?

First Sergeant: Well, yes Sir....but.....

Commander: (Having a kiniption) No buts!!!!!!! Not in my Air Force!!!!!! People don't shack up in Military Barracks!! Is that clear???

First Sergeant: Yes Sir.

Commander: (Jumping up and down) Fix this, now!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


First Sergeant (Thinking): How in the World do I fix this?

(After much thought)

I know! I'll room male homosexuals with female heterosexuals, and female homosexuals with male heterosexuals!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Commander: (Blood pressure rising like a steam boiler) First Sergeant, what in the blazes is going on in my squadron?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: Every single male in the barracks now claims he's homosexual, and wants to move in with a heterosexual female!

First Sergeant: Well, Sir, I guess the studies were wrong. Maybe it is possible for one to change their sexual orientation.

 

[Se7en]

i thought you had to be at least 18 to join the military.

 

[Irvine511]

I never said being gay would disqualify ppl from doing anything. My concern of gays is more from a "logistical" point of view. I will use this illustration to explain:


I have 13 years experience as an Air Force First Sergeant. The First Sergeant, as the representative for the Commander for all enlisted matters in the unit is the primary individual who would have to make any new policy work. I can foresee the scenario going something like this:

Commander: Well, Top, the new policy is in effect. From now on it's "Don't Ask, but You can Tell." It's up to us to try and make the new policy work.

First Sergeant: Should be no problem, sir. After all, I can't see where being gay would affect anyone's duty performance.

Commander: That's the attitude! I'll leave it in your hands to make it work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Airman Jones: Sir, I've got a problem.

First Sergeant: What's up, Jones?

Airman Jones: It's my roommate. He's Airman Thompson.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Jones: Well, he's gay, Sir. He told me so.

First Sergeant: We briefed you on the new policy. Gay service people are no different from anyone else. Airman Thompson does just as good a job as you do.

Airman Jones: Yes sir, but he keeps staring at me when I shower or change clothes and stuff. It's really creeping me out.

First Sergeant: I can see how that might bother you. I'll have a talk with him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Later, that same day)

First Sergeant: Airman Thompson, we've got a problem.

Airman Thompson: Yes sir?

First Sergeant: Your roommate claims that you keep staring at him when he undresses. He feels uncomfortable with this.

Airman Thompson: Oh, no sir! I'm not looking at him. He's not even my type.

First Sergeant: Okay. Just do me and your roommate a favor. When he undresses, make sure you look in another direction. Give his privacy rights a little break, okay?

Airman Thompson: Sure sir! No problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(Five days later)

First Sergeant: We've got a problem, Jones. Your NCOIC says this is the 2nd time you've been late for work this week. What's going on?

Airman Jones: I'm sorry sir, but I can't sleep at night. Now, every time I even reach for my zipper, Airman Thompson stares at me and gives me a "wolf-whistle." I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm about ready to smack him.

First Sergeant: No. No. You can't do that. I'll have another talk with him. Don't you even think about harming him. Got it?

Airman Jones: <glumly> Yes, sir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Later)

First Sergeant: Thompson, your roommate claims you've been staring and whistling at him. That's sexual harassment, and we won't tolerate it. Understand?

Airman Thompson: I haven't been looking or whistling! He's just lying because he doesn't like homosexuals! Most people in the military don't like us, and they'll lie in a heartbeat!

First Sergeant: Look, you're not the only one that I'm having a problem with in implementing this policy. How about if I move you into a room all by yourself?

Airman Thompson: Sure!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Two weeks later)

Commander: First Sergeant, we've just received an Inspector General Complaint. It claims that you've given all the homosexuals in the squadron a private room?

First Sergeant: Yes, sir. There were some serious problems developing between them and their heterosexual roommates. I thought it best to get them split up before someone got hurt.

Commander: I understand, but we can't give them special privileges. We don't have enough space to give everyone a single room, and you can't single out the homosexuals as getting a benefit that isn't available to the others. Now, fix it!

First Sergeant: Yes, sir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Airman Pizaz: Airman Tippy is my girlfriend.

First Sergeant: That's nice. What can I do for you.

Airman Pizaz: Well, she wants to room with me.

First Sergeant: (spitting coffee) You know we can't room a male and female together in the barracks.

Airman Pizaz: Why not? You roomed Airman Thompson and Airman Eckers together.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Pizaz: Come on, Shirt! Everyone knows they're going together. If Thompson gets to room with his boyfriend, how come I can't room with my girlfriend?

First Sergeant: Well.....I guess that makes sense. Okay, I'll approve it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Two weeks later)

Commander: (Storming into office, blowing steam out of his ears) What in the Hell are you doing, First Sergeant?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: (Face turning blue) The Wing has just received a slew of Congressional Complaints about you from concerned parents! It appears as if you are allowing their young sons and daughters to shack up in my barracks. Is that true?

First Sergeant: Well, yes Sir....but.....

Commander: (Having a kiniption) No buts!!!!!!! Not in my Air Force!!!!!! People don't shack up in Military Barracks!! Is that clear???

First Sergeant: Yes Sir.

Commander: (Jumping up and down) Fix this, now!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


First Sergeant (Thinking): How in the World do I fix this?

(After much thought)

I know! I'll room male homosexuals with female heterosexuals, and female homosexuals with male heterosexuals!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Commander: (Blood pressure rising like a steam boiler) First Sergeant, what in the blazes is going on in my squadron?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: Every single male in the barracks now claims he's homosexual, and wants to move in with a heterosexual female!

First Sergeant: Well, Sir, I guess the studies were wrong. Maybe it is possible for one to change their sexual orientation.

when you're ready to be serious again, i'd like to continue the discussion.

 

[Abomb-baby]

Oh, is none of this plausible? Why not? I realize it is a bit over the top, but this is a scenario that you can't entirely dismiss. Just give me your thoughts on how you would handle the implementation of a fully integrated military with openly Gay service men and women. And don't give me some quick answer like, "no different than it is now." There are gonna be issues that arise and want to know how you as the commander of your unit, are gonna resolve them.

 

[Judah]

Oh, is none of this plausible? Why not? I realize it is a bit over the top, but this is a scenario that you can't entirely dismiss. Just give me your thoughts on how you would handle the implementation of a fully integrated military with openly Gay service men and women. And don't give me some quick answer like, "no different than it is now." There are gonna be issues that arise and want to know how you as the commander of your unit, are gonna resolve them.

So are you saying that this a huge management problem? Something so big and complicated (unsolvable?), that we may as well not even bother with going on the path to this whole equality thing?

 

[Abomb-baby]

thanks for the short answer Judah. My mind is open, but you didn't offer much.

 

[Irvine511]

Oh, is none of this plausible? Why not? I realize it is a bit over the top, but this is a scenario that you can't entirely dismiss. Just give me your thoughts on how you would handle the implementation of a fully integrated military with openly Gay service men and women. And don't give me some quick answer like, "no different than it is now." There are gonna be issues that arise and want to know how you as the commander of your unit, are gonna resolve them.

we'll start winning the war on terror because all those smart gay people fluent in Arabic who have been discharged will be back doing important intelligence work. you'd also save $200 million.

for starters.

but don't take my word for it: "The old armchair thought that gay people destroy unit camaraderie and cohesion is just wrong," Stout said. "They said the same things when they tried to integrate African-Americans and women into the military." ... "The 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, when it first came out, was a good stepping stone, but it's outlived its usefulness," he said. "We've progressed past it both as a military and as a society."

you can argue over homosexuality for ever, but what is changing the world is the simple witness of people from all backgrounds and walks of life that this is who they are. what social conservatives have to grapple with is that openly gay people are not going away, so let's do the conservative thing and be pragmatic: where do these people fit in? how can they be integrated into family life? how do we acknowledge their citizenship? and, above all else, their humanity?

i want full integration into civil institutions, the same rules, the same principles of responsibility. what do you have? is prejudice strong enough to create a shadow class of people operating somehow in a cultural and social limbo? sorry, but gay people can no longer cooperate - the old conservative politics of homosexuality has disintegrated. if the military wants to survive, if the Catholic church wants to survive, it's got to adapt to a changing world. and this is but one small part, but it's a microcosm of all the seismic cultural changes we've been undergoing that, at it's root, is a direct result of the 20th century which, for all it's horrors and unprecedented bloodshed, has seen the greatest expansion of individual liberty in all of human history.

so what are you left with? older more virulent and prohibitionist methods? get real, and deal with the world as it is, not as you would imagine it should be, and don't assume that military soldiers are incapable of getting past homosexuality.

trust me. it ain't such a thang.

 

[Judah]

thanks for the short answer Judah. My mind is open, but you didn't offer much.

Sorry, it wasn't an answer, but some questions. I'm trying to understand your real problems with this. Sometimes it's a "moral" issue, sometimes a logistical one, and sometimes it's your personal rights being overtaken by someone's rights to be equal.

 

[Judah]

**oops...double post**

 

[Irvine511]

in sum, this is what it comes down to:

when it comes to civil rights, and human rights, it is society that must adapt itself to the individual.

it was probably logistically difficult for those 5 african-american students to go to that white high school in Alabama in the 1950s.

if put up to a vote, neither the citizens of Alabama, the taxpayers in that school zone, nor the students at that school would ever have voted to allow black students to attend.

however, times change. society changes. and people change.

and we're all better for it.

 

[Dreadsox]

Mired in the ignorance of prejudice....stereotyping....and total fear of change.

 

[martha]

anyway, it's very simple: your perceived uncomfortableness at being in a shower with someone who might possibly find you attractive -- even though this has probably happened before, and you haven't noticed -- isn't grounds to deny someone their right to military service.

Has the new guy addressed this yet? Between the little plays, the newspaper clippings, and the very strenuous references to morality, I haven't seen whether he truly thinks his "comfort" trumps someone else's civil rights.

 

[Dreadsox]

Can someone tell my how come most of our nato Allies do not ban gays, and their military has managed to survive?

 

[melon]

Oh, is none of this plausible? Why not? I realize it is a bit over the top, but this is a scenario that you can't entirely dismiss. Just give me your thoughts on how you would handle the implementation of a fully integrated military with openly Gay service men and women. And don't give me some quick answer like, "no different than it is now." There are gonna be issues that arise and want to know how you as the commander of your unit, are gonna resolve them.

You breeders are going to be uncomfortable at times. Maybe then you can learn something called "empathy." Fucking heteros make me uncomfortable in life, but I can't whine to my boss every time I think they're looking at me the wrong way. Get over it.

Melon

 

[anitram]

I can't believe you guys are still dignifying that garbage with any response at all.

It's time we stopped giving these people a platform from which to spew their prejudices.

 

[Dreadsox]

I can't believe you guys are still dignifying that garbage with any response at all.

It's time we stopped giving these people a platform from which to spew their prejudices.

 

[Irvine511]

well, i'd rather engage someone than simply dismiss them. perhaps i can change a mind?

on a selfish note, it's a great opportunity to write down what i'm thinking and make my arguments more coherent and lucid. we get nowhere without being challenged, and my thesis advisor had a saying: "There is no thinking, until you've done some writing; there is no writing, until you've done some rewriting."

that's why i spend a bunch of time in FYM -- i want to figure out what i'm thinking.

 

[martha]

Still no answer to my question. Did the new guy give up?

 

[Abomb-baby]

I'm sorry did I miss somrthing where the Civil rights act provided for no discrimination of sexual orientation? Until that law is passed, I think your arguments are futile. At this time on a federal level, gays aren't given the same protections as minorities, yet many of you continue to liken your cause to that ogf blacks during the civil rights era of the 1960's. That is laughable!! Blacks in this country were dicriminated against on every level of there being. Housing, jobs, education, voting rights, sitting on buses,stores the could go to, etc. etc. etc.!!! How in the hell can you make the similarity? If you go to a job interview, no one would even know you were gay unless you told them. A black man, well its sort of obvious hes black now ain't it? And I would be willing to bet good money that most gays living in urban areas are probably on the upper level on the socio-economic scale. Again, the MAN has not been keeping you down!! Please quit making these similarities, because its pissing me and my black friends off!! Your struggle isn't the same. It's not even close!!

Oh, and as far as me being uncomfortable with me being forced to live, shower, undress, blah, blah, blah? Sorry, I have that right. Just as I have the same right to feel uncomfortable doing so in front of a woman. If you were to tell women in military, "we appreciate your service, but tomorrow, the military is integrating the sexes. We are going fully co-ed. No seperate shower facilities, no seperate living quarters,etc. The women's groups in this country would have an absolute shit kiniption. But you know what? The military won't do it because it would be utter caos.

On a personal note, if it does ever happen that gays are allowed to openly serve, I would be able to handle it fine. Many of you see me as the enemy, but my tolerance level is much higher than many of you may perceive my posts to be. Some of it is my personal feelings on the issue, other parts I am playing more devil's advocate. I will continue to view this forum with an open mind (whether you believe it or not). I will also continue to defend your right to completely disagree with me!

 

[pax]

Blacks in this country were dicriminated against on every level of there being. Housing, jobs, education, voting rights, sitting on buses,stores the could go to, etc. etc. etc.!!! How in the hell can you make the similarity? If you go to a job interview, no one would even know you were gay unless you told them. A black man, well its sort of obvious hes black now ain't it? And I would be willing to bet good money that most gays living in urban areas are probably on the upper level on the socio-economic scale. Again, the MAN has not been keeping you down!! Please quit making these similarities, because its pissing me and my black friends off!! Your struggle isn't the same. It's not even close!!

While I agree that no one (that I know of) has tried to deny gay persons the right to vote or ride public transportation, its simply untrue that there's no discrimination against gay people whatsoever. There have been wrongful termination lawsuits brought against companies who fired openly gay employees; homophobic landlords can (and do) deny housing to gay couples, for example. Is it perfectly akin to discrimination against black people? Well, no, the major difference being that gays have not, as a class of people, been enslaved for hundreds of years. But there are parallels that are not insignificant.

 

[Abomb-baby]

While I agree that no one (that I know of) has tried to deny gay persons the right to vote or ride public transportation, its simply untrue that there's no discrimination against gay people whatsoever. There have been wrongful termination lawsuits brought against companies who fired openly gay employees; homophobic landlords can (and do) deny housing to gay couples, for example. Is it perfectly akin to discrimination against black people? Well, no, the major difference being that gays have not, as a class of people, been enslaved for hundreds of years. But there are parallels that are not insignificant.

I never said their was never ANY discrimination against gay people. Do white, straight men NEVER get discriminated against? I have been discriminated against before. It sucks. But lifes not fair. It never is and it never will be. I just don't cry about it every time it happens to me. Even if I did, no one would give a shit. "Oh, your a straight, white male. To fuckin bad," is all I would here from the majority of other groups. We all face discrimination. Whether you want to believe it or not is up to you.

 

[Irvine511]

I'm sorry did I miss somrthing where the Civil rights act provided for no discrimination of sexual orientation? Until that law is passed, I think your arguments are futile. At this time on a federal level, gays aren't given the same protections as minorities, yet many of you continue to liken your cause to that ogf blacks during the civil rights era of the 1960's. That is laughable!! Blacks in this country were dicriminated against on every level of there being. Housing, jobs, education, voting rights, sitting on buses,stores the could go to, etc. etc. etc.!!! How in the hell can you make the similarity? If you go to a job interview, no one would even know you were gay unless you told them. A black man, well its sort of obvious hes black now ain't it? And I would be willing to bet good money that most gays living in urban areas are probably on the upper level on the socio-economic scale. Again, the MAN has not been keeping you down!! Please quit making these similarities, because its pissing me and my black friends off!! Your struggle isn't the same. It's not even close!!

in one sense, you're right; being gay is not like being black, it's more like being Jewish.

and Jewish people are never discriminated against, right?

 

[Irvine511]

i also think you've failed to answer the following questions:

1. how does your right to be "comfortable" -- as you understand it, making it very subjective -- become more important than a gay person's right to serve in the military and not have to live a double life?

2. is this vague notion of "unit cohesion" more important than all of the talented gay people in other branches of the armed forces -- remember, we're talking as much about Pentagon desk jobs as we are talking about kids in Fallujah -- and especially in regards to the translators mentioned over and over? like our brilliant gay translators, let's not forget that the segregated 442nd Division of all Japanese-American soldiers was the most highly decorated unit in the WW2 European theater ... isn't the army better off tapping into the talents of gay Americans rather than shutting them out, isn't the army better today precisely because of the talents that non-white americans bring?

3. is it in the military's best interests to remain one of the last outposts of homophobia and ignorance in American society? just how is this any different from the intergration of non-white soldiers into the Army?

 

[martha]

That guy is hopeless.

 

[martha]

Oh, and as far as me being uncomfortable with me being forced to live, shower, undress, blah, blah, blah? Sorry, I have that right. Just as I have the same right to feel uncomfortable doing so in front of a woman. If you were to tell women in military, "we appreciate your service, but tomorrow, the military is integrating the sexes. We are going fully co-ed. No seperate shower facilities, no seperate living quarters,etc. The women's groups in this country would have an absolute shit kiniption. But you know what? The military won't do it because it would be utter caos.

I tell ya what, when straight white men (poor babies) stop raping women, then we can talk about sharing facilities.

Until then, they will be separate.


Now I can't wait for the fear of gay rape in this guy.

 

[martha]

Now, Subterranean Homesick Alien is on, so I'm off to listen to it.

 

[Irvine511]

I tell ya what, when straight white men (poor babies) stop raping women, then we can talk about sharing facilities.

wow.

home run.

 

[Abomb-baby]

Irvine if you could send me the link about the interpreters I would like to read it please.

And Martha, your comments have brought nothing to the discussion except confirm my feelings about liberal thought in general. Thank you

 

[pax]

You're welcome.

I agree with her, by the way.

In fact, while we're on the subject, what do you think about scandals involving claims of sexual harassment and rape in the military that were covered up or dealt with insufficiently--acts committed largely, if not exlcusively, by heterosexual men?

 

[Abomb-baby]

Well, were not on the subject actually. If you'd like to know myopinion about it, start another thread.