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Old 04-10-2005, 02:49 PM   #61
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"Gays should not be allowed to serve in the military because they are evil and God hates them and we don't want God hating people in our army. DUHH...it's a proven fact. Gays are evil."





That is my paraphrasing of some people on this forum.
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Old 04-10-2005, 02:50 PM   #62
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I think he is attracted to your mind Melon....
Then I'd have to politely, but firmly say, "Thanks, but I don't swing that way." Then I'd get Congress to legislate a permanent restraining order.

Melon
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Old 04-10-2005, 02:52 PM   #63
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Well, You have nothing to worry about Melon.
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Old 04-10-2005, 02:53 PM   #64
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Its funny how no one has still been able to answer my question regarding living with a person who finds the same sex attractive. If I am a straight man, why should I have to sleep or shower in the same quarters as someone who may possibly get some gratification in it?
my freshman and sophomore years of college i lived on a floor that was often referred to as the "gay floor," as opposed to the second floor, due to the number of openly gay men in residence. our showers were not private stalls. i never had a problem showering with anyone, regardless of sexual orientation, and i am a heterosexual male.

perhaps to spare the feelings of the other, to be blunt, bigoted residents of my floor, the college should have inacted a "don't ask don't tell policy" so that openly gay students would not be allowed in campus dorms.
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Old 04-10-2005, 02:54 PM   #65
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New Course by Royal Navy: A Campaign to Recruit Gays
By SARAH LYALL

[B]LONDON, Feb. 21 - Five years after Britain lifted its ban on gays in the military, the Royal Navy has begun actively encouraging them to enlist and has pledged to make life easier when they do.

The navy announced Monday that it had asked Stonewall, a group that lobbies for gay rights, to help it develop better strategies for recruiting and retaining gay men and lesbians. It said, too, that one strategy may be to advertise for recruits in gay magazines and newspapers.

Commodore Paul Docherty, director of naval life management, said the service wanted to change the atmosphere so that gays would feel comfortable working there.

"While some gays were confident to come out, others didn't feel that the environment was necessarily accepting of them," Commodore Docherty said in an interview.

The partnership with Stonewall, Commodore Docherty said, will help "make more steps toward improving the culture and attitude within the service as a whole, so gays who are still in the closet feel that much more comfortable about coming out."[/N]

Gays in Britain have benefited from a number of new laws, including one that makes it illegal for employers to discriminate on the basis of workers' sexuality.

Last year, Parliament passed the Civil Partnership Act, which gives marriage-style rights to British gays who have registered as couples. The entire military is subject to the legislation, and starting in the fall, gay couples in the military who have registered under the act will be allowed to apply for housing in quarters previously reserved for married couples.

The new effort continues a pattern of changing official attitudes in the navy - once derided as running on rum, sodomy and the lash, in a phrase usually attributed to Winston Churchill. And while most European militaries have lifted bans on gays, none have been as active as the Royal Navy in encouraging their service.

Until a European court ruled in 1999 that Britain's ban on gays in the military violated European human-rights laws, the navy, along with the rest of the country's military, followed a no-exceptions policy of dismissing service men and women who were found to be gay, often after long and intrusive investigations.

The military had agonized for years over the issue, in the way the United States has, and always concluded that allowing gays and lesbians to serve would prove prohibitively disruptive and would ruin discipline and cohesion.

But after the court ruling, it had no choice but to reverse its policy. Beginning in 2000, the military said gays would no longer be prohibited from serving. It also stopped monitoring its recruits' sex lives, saying that sexuality, as long as it did not intrude into the workplace, should not be an issue one way or another.

Recently, gay men and women in the British services have lived and fought in Iraq alongside heterosexuals without problems, according to military officials.

"I would say that before the European court ruling, it was difficult to see this policy happening or working," said Lt. Cmdr. Craig Jones, a gay naval officer who often speaks publicly, with the navy's approval, on gay rights issues.

"People were quite hot under the collar about it; the admirals, generals and air marshals were really concerned," he added. "I'm quite sure that these folks look now and think, 'What was all that fuss about?' "

Most European countries, including France, Germany, Spain, Switzerland and Denmark, have lifted their bans on gays in the military. But Britain, and particularly the navy, has gone further, said Aaron Belkin, director of the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military at the University of California, Santa Barbara.

"In a lot of cases what you have is a legal commitment to nondiscrimination, but a quiet continuation of previous cultural norms," Mr. Belkin said. "But here you have not only a reversal of policy and a formal commitment to nondiscrimination, but a proactive embracing of the idea that integration is good for the military and diversity is useful for recruiting from the fullest possible pool."


In Britain, Stonewall currently advises about 90 employers, some of them big companies, about how better to recruit and treat gay and lesbian workers. It is this program that the navy has signed up for.

"Increasingly, organizations are recognizing that having well-trained and highly committed staff who feel comfortable in the workplace is highly important," said Alan Wartle, a spokesman for Stonewall. "It's about having a range of policies and also about the more intangible element, the cultural change."

Commodore Docherty said one likely step for the navy would be to begin advertising in gay publications, as part of a general recruitment effort.

"We advertise in a lot of magazines," he said. "For instance, we advertise in cycling and swimming magazines - not because we're after cyclists and swimmers particularly, but because it's part of our target audience of 16-to-24-year-olds."

Gays in the British military are subject to the same rules of sexual conduct as heterosexuals: no touching, no kissing, no flaunting of sexuality. Since 1991, women have been allowed to serve with men on ships, which operate under strict "no sex" rules, and sailors in such close quarters have relied on what one naval official said was "common sense and good manners."

Despite the change in policy, relatively few gay men and lesbians in the military - whether because of fear of being intimidated, or because of personal choice - have come out. The services do not keep statistics on the number of gays, holding by the principle, Commander Jones said, that "sexuality is a private matter for the individual."

He called the announcement by the navy on Monday "a huge step forward."

"You get folks like me who choose to be out, and there are others who don't - it's up to them," he said. "We've come a very, very long way in five years, but we don't want to be complacent."

Commodore Docherty said the navy was trying to send a clear message.

"The fact that we are making this high-level commitment will hopefully show people that it's not just empty words when we talk about diversity and opportunity," he said, "but are actually taking action to do something about it."
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Old 04-10-2005, 02:55 PM   #66
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Amazing that other nations are not having difficulties with the concepts apparently.
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Old 04-10-2005, 02:56 PM   #67
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i believe several, if not many, european militaries allow openly gay servicepeople to sign up.
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Old 04-10-2005, 02:59 PM   #68
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America is always seemingly dead last in human rights, among the industrialized nations.

Funny how the U.S., along with the Vatican and Middle Eastern theocracies vote the same way in the U.N., when it comes to votes on those issues.

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Old 04-10-2005, 03:01 PM   #69
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Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Melon, thank you again for not answering my question. I knew I could count on you to once again avoid it.
I already answered it to an extent. I have straight male friends who shared apartments with gay males and never had a problem. Personal space was respected. Incidents of the nature you imply didn't occur. One of my friends would even have been moderately "homophobic" in outlook and was intially not best pleased when he found out his flatmate was homosexual. Well as it transpired they got on fine and there were no problems.

The military might be a little different to civilian life of course.
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Old 04-10-2005, 03:15 PM   #70
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Exactly. Abomb-baby, it's not that hard a problem to handle. If a gay man happens to find you attractive, just simply tell him you're not interested in him in that way, and chances are extremely good that he'll leave you alone as a result. You'd do that in regards to a girl that you didn't hold any interest in, right? Why must it be so different here?

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Old 04-10-2005, 03:16 PM   #71
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I honestly haven't known that many gay people, but where on earth do people get those stereotypes? The media? Their friends/family? In my experience there are many straight people who are promiscuous and trying to force their unwanted advances. I would like to know why some people think all or most gay people are like that. Yes there are SOME gay people like that, just like there are SOME straight people, some Jewish people, some Catholic people, whatever..

I can't imagine fighting and being willing to die for your country and still having to face discrimination. Women in the military have to face it too, but at least they don't have to hide the fact that they are women.
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Old 04-10-2005, 03:24 PM   #72
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You are all missing the point! If we are going to segregate the sexes due to the the assumption that their sexual orientation is that the are attracted to the opposite sex, then wouldn't it also be necessary to do so between gay men and straight men? Why not? Otherwise I see no reason to have ANY seperation of any genders/ sexual orientation whatsoever. Men and women and gay and straight all just soaping eachother up on the USS Lincoln! Hmmm.....maybe I'm on to something here!!
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Old 04-10-2005, 04:14 PM   #73
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Originally posted by Abomb-baby
You are all missing the point! If we are going to segregate the sexes due to the the assumption that their sexual orientation is that the are attracted to the opposite sex, then wouldn't it also be necessary to do so between gay men and straight men? Why not? Otherwise I see no reason to have ANY seperation of any genders/ sexual orientation whatsoever. Men and women and gay and straight all just soaping eachother up on the USS Lincoln! Hmmm.....maybe I'm on to something here!!
I don't know if i subscribe to this, but here's a distinction I think is valid: The worry with men and women in the same quarters isn't that one will be attracted to the other and the other will feel uncomfortable as a result, which is the problem you're talking about. The worry is that BOTH parties will find the other attractive and that a sexual relationship will result. That "danger" is still there if you have multiple gay men living in the same quarters, but it's completely different than the sort of "ick" factor that you seem hung up on.

So to the extent that sexual relationships between officers are a problem, having men and women live/shower together greatly increases the risk of that. The increase in risk is barely there or not there at all in the case of allowing straight and gay men to live/shower together. So, basically, I think curbing sexual relationships among officers could be a valid reason for separating the sexes. But I don't think the mere fact that someone feels uncomfortable that someone might be attracted to them is enough to flat out ban gays from serving.

Of course, I lived in a co-ed dorm for four years, and I never came across the sort of orgy you seem to envision happening if the sexes and sexual orientations were mixed. So I don't know how much I buy my own justification for separating men and women. But I still think that justification is miles away from the one you're offering for keeping gays out of the military.

And some others have brought this up, but what about gay men and women who serve, but don't live with other officers? Like translators, for example. Under your logic, there's no good reason to ban them and, yet, here we are. Which makes me think that the not allowing gays to serve has less to do with actual practical concerns and more to do with a general dislike of and discomfort with gay people.

Ok now I'm going to ask you to make a distinction: do you think gay students should be banned from schools because they're going to shower with members of the same sex? After all, shouldn't we be worried that they're going to be attracted to the students they're showering with and that those other students will be uncomfortable? So either you think that it would be ok to ban gay kids from school (or at least gym class) or there's some flaw in your logic.
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Old 04-10-2005, 04:27 PM   #74
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The precedent has already been set with foreign nations, who already have openly gay servicemen. Apparently, it was not a problem. Question answered.

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Old 04-10-2005, 04:57 PM   #75
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The precedent has already been set with foreign nations, who already have openly gay servicemen. Apparently, it was not a problem. Question answered.

Melon
Well actually,I would like to know how you know there have been no problems. Are you serving in some foreign military unit that allows them to openly serve?According to the article posted by Dread the british Navy still has a problem with anyone openly admitting they are gay. Seems the Limeys must not be as progressive as you all think, otherwise all the gay sailors would be outing themselves, which they AREN'T DOING according to the article.
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