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Old 01-21-2007, 05:43 AM   #136
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so ya'll pee with the door open?
I do actually!

I don't agree that being honest and sharing everything with a spouse makes someone lose sense of themselves at all.

I will never understand the need for privacy within a relationship. When one half of a couple expects privacy so that they can get off on pics or videos of other people, there are going to be trust issues.
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Old 01-21-2007, 06:20 AM   #137
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Hmmm, interesting thread.

I approach this topic a little differently, and I hope it doesn't come across as judgemental, especially towards Mr. Pryck who sounds like he's had a rough time and has handled it all pretty gracefully so far as I can tell.

I agree that the snooping is definitely symptomatic of some pretty serious issues and it's probably good the couple went into therapy hopefully a) to deal with the trust issues and violation of privacy, and b) to find a compromise on the issue of porn, because it would appear that Mr. P and his fiance have different sets of values on the "okayness" of porn.

In general the concept that there is "no privacy" in marriage is perhaps not the healthiest one, and approaching marriage with that mindset is bound to cause problems eventually, in my opinion. By the same token, if a spouse feels they have to keep a great deal of their lives "private", that also can damage a marriage. It's a delicate dance that works when the couple both respects each other's privacy AND chooses to be open and honest with each other. For me, there really isn't anything I "keep" from my wife. I do a keep a journal (have done so since I was eleven) and I expect my wife to respect my privacy by not reading it. As far as I know she's respected my privacy in that way, and I appreciate that. At the same time there is nothing in my journal that I feel I couldn't share with her. For me, it's just a way of maintaining my autonomy and individuality within my marriage--having something that is just for me.

Regarding the issue of pornography: Not all guys just "have" to look at pornography on a regular basis. I don't (which is not to say that I've never looked at pornography. But it's never been something that's part of my "routine".) I'm not about to judge a marriage/relationship where the husband looks at porn regularly and the wife is okay with it, but for me I couldn't feel comfortable doing that. I believe that sexuality is something that should be shared exclusively with my wife--that's rooted in my religious and moral beliefs though and I recognize others will feel differently.

Granted it's a little bit easier for me because I honestly don't find pornography to be that compelling. I mean I like seeing a naked woman as much as the next guy but I'd rather see a "real" woman rather than these cartoonish figures in the porn I've seen (I'm particularly bothered by the oversized breasts for some reason. Just doesn't do anything for me).
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Old 01-21-2007, 08:25 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
In general the concept that there is "no privacy" in marriage is perhaps not the healthiest one, and approaching marriage with that mindset is bound to cause problems eventually, in my opinion. By the same token, if a spouse feels they have to keep a great deal of their lives "private", that also can damage a marriage. It's a delicate dance that works when the couple both respects each other's privacy AND chooses to be open and honest with each other.
I agree with this--striking a balance with these kinds of things is a "delicate dance" and when it works, part of the reason why is because a mutual understanding already exists as to where the boundaries are. Actively and repeatedly lying to your partner is a problem, snooping around behind their back is a problem too. As you say, it's a little different when there's an agreed-upon moral rejection of porn and I would say if someone holds that particular view, then it's their responsibility to make that clear before they get into an involved intimate relationship with someone. Where it gets fuzzier is where no such categorical objection exists, because--as a quick glance through this thread reveals--there's really no going social protocol about how to draw the boundaries beyond that. Some men (and in some cases women) may prefer to tell their partner upfront and in advance that they'll be looking at porn occasionally, others may figure it's part of their sexual fantasy life and therefore their own private business just like their female partner's fantasies are her own business, and then some, aware of the fact that porn can for some women trigger unwarranted feelings of inadequacy, may opt not to talk about it or look at it when she's around for that reason. I don't think it's reasonable or fair to automatically assume any one of those responses signals a "problem." Actively lying to your partner ("Oh no, I would never look at porn!" when you do) is a problem, needing to look at it for hours daily is a problem. (And for whoever asked--'paraphilia' is a clinical term for reliance on specific objects or situations to enable sexual arousal, such that the person is unable to participate in reciprocal sexual affection without that enabler present.) But it's also possible to dig your own grave with these kinds of things, and not telling your partner in advance if you have a categorical objection to porn, or automatically assuming that of course they'd readily share it with you if they ever looked at it, then freaking out and treating it as if it were a deceitful betrayal of some (nonexistent) agreement when you 'discover' it, could well be an example of that. That's one of the things I was getting at by wondering if it's perhaps a bit too easy to 'pathologize' porn simply because it involves objects and not imagination--again, how would you feel about it if your fantasies were an open book and your male partner could rummage freely through them going "Hey! what's this guy doing in here?" or "Wait a second, none of these bodies look like mine, does this mean I'm not good enough for you?" or "Damn! Check out this action going down over here, you and I've never tried that, how come?" or "Uhhhh...whoa, you've got to be kidding me, you think this kinda thing is sexy?" Of course porn is unrealistic and objectifying--fantasy almost always is. That's not an argument against expressing any doubts or insecurities you have and expecting a respectful conversation about them, just an observation about recognizing when compromise may be reasonable and shaming the other person, not.

Admittedly, a situation like Lies described is hard to know what to say about, because that does sound pretty extreme and people who are straying into addiction territory, whether it be porn, alcohol, eating disorders or whatever, generally do try to hide it from everyone including their SOs, for reasons that go way beyond "liking my privacy just like anyone else". All I can really say is, once the two of you are living together it's very, very likely that your need to withdraw for "hours a day" is going to be noticed and questioned, and your partner would be right to regard it as a serious issue for both you and the relationship at that point.
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Old 01-21-2007, 09:01 AM   #139
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Originally posted by U2Man
sometimes it amazes me how much people can get out of, well, nothing.

9 pages.
9 pages about Bono's sunglasses? Just to give one example..Isn't it ironic, don't ya think?

It's "nothing" to you, doesn't mean others aren't interested in discussing it. Other than drooling about peeing with the door open.
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Old 01-21-2007, 09:24 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean

In general the concept that there is "no privacy" in marriage is perhaps not the healthiest one, and approaching marriage with that mindset is bound to cause problems eventually, in my opinion. By the same token, if a spouse feels they have to keep a great deal of their lives "private", that also can damage a marriage. It's a delicate dance that works when the couple both respects each other's privacy AND chooses to be open and honest with each other. For me, there really isn't anything I "keep" from my wife. I do a keep a journal (have done so since I was eleven) and I expect my wife to respect my privacy by not reading it. As far as I know she's respected my privacy in that way, and I appreciate that. At the same time there is nothing in my journal that I feel I couldn't share with her. For me, it's just a way of maintaining my autonomy and individuality within my marriage--having something that is just for me.
I agree with this. I think using privacy time to deliberately go behind your partner's back to do something you know he/she is objects to is just as harmful to the relationship as snooping behind your partner's back to see what they do when you're not around.

OceanGirl - I agree with you that honesty doesn't hurt a relationship. But checking up on someone like that is just as dishonest.

You can still be honest to your partner without having to disclose every single personal thing about yourself. If relationships don't leave room for some individuality, or personal space/time, then they become too consuming.
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Old 01-21-2007, 09:35 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by OceanGirl


I do actually!

I don't agree that being honest and sharing everything with a spouse makes someone lose sense of themselves at all.

I will never understand the need for privacy within a relationship. When one half of a couple expects privacy so that they can get off on pics or videos of other people, there are going to be trust issues.
For me, a relationship would never work if I had to confess about everything I'm doing, thinking or whatever.
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Old 01-21-2007, 09:35 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by redhotswami

You can still be honest to your partner without having to disclose every single personal thing about yourself. If relationships don't leave room for some individuality, or personal space/time, then they become too consuming.
I agree. I would personally find that sort of relationship suffocating, and unhealthy. And boring. I think the key is to be compatible enough to agree as much as possible on what the boundaries are in the relationship and discuss what each person would like them to be. There's a line between full disclosure and giving up self and deception- and they are two different things.
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Old 01-21-2007, 06:20 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


9 pages about Bono's sunglasses? Just to give one example..Isn't it ironic, don't ya think?

It's "nothing" to you, doesn't mean others aren't interested in discussing it. Other than drooling about peeing with the door open.
well, people had fun in that thread, so it was worth all 9 pages.

please dont indicate that i was trying to get the thread closed or mocking people in here or anything. i was just wondering how people could write so many long posts about this issue.

and besides, if you cannot see the importance of bono's shades then you're not a u2 fan and shouldnt be posting here at all, mrsspringsteen
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Old 01-21-2007, 06:28 PM   #144
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You can still be honest to your partner without having to disclose every single personal thing about yourself. If relationships don't leave room for some individuality, or personal space/time, then they become too consuming.
Quote:
I agree. I would personally find that sort of relationship suffocating, and unhealthy. And boring. I think the key is to be compatible enough to agree as much as possible on what the boundaries are in the relationship and discuss what each person would like them to be. There's a line between full disclosure and giving up self and deception- and they are two different things.
Just because there is honesty between a couple, does not mean that you have to disclose "every little thing" about yourself. I was not suggesting that people within a partnership don't need any time to themselves, or that they have to come home and tell each other everything that they have done or said that day. I was just saying there should be no reason to lie or keep secrets from a partner and that people should be able to freely ask their partners questions and have them answer openly and honestly.

And for what it's worth, I agree that checking up on someone is dishonest, but I don't understand why anyone would have the NEED to "check up" on someone they were planning on marrying. I would have assumed that if a couple was at a point where they were getting married, there would already be honesty and trust between them.
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Old 01-21-2007, 07:18 PM   #145
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Originally posted by U2Man
i was just wondering how people could write so many long posts about this issue.
If you're referring to me, I'm generally a colossal windbag anyway no matter what the issue. Online, anyhow.
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Old 01-21-2007, 07:26 PM   #146
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Originally posted by yolland

If you're referring to me, I'm generally a colossal windbag anyway no matter what the issue. Online, anyhow.
I like your posts. I must admit my eyes sometimes cross and once in a while will even spasm while reading them, but they are always interesting and informative.
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Old 01-21-2007, 07:37 PM   #147
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Originally posted by yolland

If you're referring to me, I'm generally a colossal windbag anyway no matter what the issue. Online, anyhow.
I like your posts too! They can be a shimmering light of clarity amidst the confusion for me. Everytime my User CP says yolland made the last post, I'm all
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Old 01-21-2007, 07:48 PM   #148
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To clarify, my fiancee was resting on the couch, while I was reading stuff on the internet. She wondered what I was looking at, so the next morning when I went out for a little while, she checked out my computer to see what I was looking at. That was when she discovered that a couple of days earlier, I had looked at some explicit photos posted at yahoo groups.
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Old 01-22-2007, 12:37 PM   #149
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You know, the guy I used to date about fell off his bed when I told him I didn't give a rat's ass about him watching porn. After all, I knew he watched it - call it basic instinct, even before he told me - and it really, seriously, didn't bother me. I actually feel totally ambivalant about it. It's interesting to watch. Most of it's deadly funny. Most of it's just Really. Bad. Acting. (I mean, we know they're gong to get it going, so why not just /do/ it already!
)

What actually annoyed the hell out of me was how he would continuously ask my permission, like I cared what he did with his free time. "Are you sure I can watch porn?"

Ehm, you're a six-foot-six, 36 year old grown man. Why would I care? He seriously couldn't believe I didn't care. I suspect he kept expecting me to girlify on him.

We actually split up for other reasons - like, he's about the most uninteresting human being on earth..brain's about at a fifteen year old's level..was much too..girly! gah. Anywho. To the question at hand!

Your fiancee has no right to dictate what you do with your free time. I'd seriously be having conversations about your right to do what you want. Her body image issues do not require you to sit there trying to alleviate them FOR her - she needs to work that out herself; no amount of you not watching porn is going to fix it. Fact is, if you so much as glance at another woman, she's going to fret.

Porn isn't degrading when all parties are of legal age and consent to it - I've never understood that whole argument against porn.
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:36 PM   #150
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Y'know, I somehow find it endlessly amusing that we can objectify U2's looks, write all manner of fictional stories about them, including sexual stuff, and read it, and not think it's at all objectifying, yet many posters here are offended by porn.

I'm not saying you don't have the right to be; I'm just wondering what the difference is.
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