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Old 03-29-2007, 05:40 PM   #61
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But it isn't Canada.
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Old 03-29-2007, 05:41 PM   #62
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Well, but what horrible unseemly things have happened here as a result of the enactment of the Charter in 1982? Can you name one?

ETA: I do believe a lot of this is political posturing. But when you read things like that ridiculous glass ceiling comment on this thread, it really sheds some light on the types of attitudes which used to be pervasive but remain with us to this day. I mean, to suggest that I should be grateful I have a glass ceiling rather than being dead - you have to ask yourself who thinks this way?
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Old 03-29-2007, 05:43 PM   #63
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I remember hearing about the ERA as a little kid (the first time) and assuming in my youthful naivete that, of course, it would pass. I mean, who'd be openly against equal rights for women under the law? But of course I was very little at the time...sadly now when it doesn't pass this time around (and it surely won't) I won't be surprised. Opposition to the ERA, to me, should be greeted with the same scorn that Tim Hardaway's "I hate gays" comments were. The fact that someone can say "I'm against equal rights for women" and still have a political career in this country is truly pathetic.
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Old 03-29-2007, 05:44 PM   #64
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^A legitimate need for certain groups with their own ends; but given but if it was ever used to force private organisations to have quotas or break up clubs that discriminate by sex it would be very wrong.
Yes, yes, we know that private property trumps any rights anybody has. No matter what their gender or skin color.

Or political associations.
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Old 03-29-2007, 05:46 PM   #65
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I mean, to suggest that I should be grateful I have a glass ceiling rather than being dead - you have to ask yourself who thinks this way?
I don't want to think about it.
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Old 03-29-2007, 05:47 PM   #66
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No, but that is really an issue of proximity. I just think that those policies while beneficial against the most intransigent sections of society are government overstepping it's bounds.
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Old 03-29-2007, 05:49 PM   #67
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No, but that is really an issue of proximity. I just think that those policies while beneficial against the most intransigent sections of society are government overstepping it's bounds.
We've been around on this before, and I'll say when you get out a little bit and really see what's going on, you'll alter your opinions a bit. Especially when you run up against the kind of discrimination in reality you support in theory.
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Old 03-29-2007, 05:50 PM   #68
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Yes, yes, we know that private property trumps any rights anybody has. No matter what their gender or skin color.

Or political associations.
Better than the idea that your right to control your property is void when the way that you want to use it clashes with societies expectations.
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Old 03-29-2007, 05:53 PM   #69
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We've been around on this before, and I'll say when you get out a little bit and really see what's going on, you'll alter your opinions a bit. Especially when you run up against the kind of discrimination in reality you support in theory.
To support the right to do the wrong thing is not an endorsement of it; much different than say actively supporting positive discrimination.

It gets so ad hominem; if I support the right of neo-nazis to march then I implicitly support their agenda, if I oppose speech codes then I agree with hate speech etc. now all of those throwaway lines that have been used are useless since they don't line up with the evidence. Your intent however is much more clear and you consistently support more government protections that will force bad people to play nice at the expence of freedom.

At the end of the day I support abortion rights, every type of marriage contract, employers electing to have diversity quotas and make smart hiring decisions and oppose the use of force and coercion to achieve change which in large part was won from within society without such measures.
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Old 03-29-2007, 05:54 PM   #70
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When someone's "freedom to" overlaps someone else's "freedom from", where do you draw the line?
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Old 03-29-2007, 06:04 PM   #71
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There is no freedom to be employed by a certain employer like there is no freedom to not be offended.

If somebody refused to hire me because I am an atheist then they are excercising control over their property, if I get the government to force them to hire me then I and excercising control over their property.

That sucks and as a hypothetical example it is far less vicious and pernacious than the very real obstacles and hatred behind such discrimination in the real world but the principle remains the same.
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Old 03-29-2007, 06:08 PM   #72
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That sucks and as a hypothetical example it is far less vicious and pernacious than the very real obstacles and hatred behind such discrimination in the real world but the principle remains the same.
Again, some realities will indeed alter your blind adherence to theory. It may take a while, and it may hurt like hell, but it will happen.

Until then, please don't continue to excuse real discriminatory behavior by hiding behind theory.

Thank you.
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Old 03-29-2007, 06:19 PM   #73
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The realities of what happens when the government is given the power to supress speech, confiscate individuals property and the history of trying to change society from the top down (and in this case it is very late indeed) do temper my views.

Your making a utilitarian argument to support a softly authoritarian agenda; I am not claiming that a laissez faire approach to a governments control of it's population will produce equality or happiness or even the ideal solution to problems but you are claiming that government force can be a force for good in society. It is grounded in it's own theory; which seems to be that society benefits most from equality and diversity and that those goals are at times more important than the individual; appart from the issues of individual rights and property rights which cannot be agreed upon I have a problem with this argument (provided that it generally reflects your philosophy) in that it is dependent on arbitrary definition of what constitutes the greater good - you always end up with double standards to reach that end.

There is no slippery slope for the government to tumble down if it is never given the power to act.
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Old 03-29-2007, 06:34 PM   #74
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but you are claiming that government force can be a force for good in society.
Yes, I am. Ask any black American who can now live, shop, worship, and work anywhere she wants to.

Babble on all you want about how "the government" shouldn't control these things, but "the government" is ultimately us, acting to step in when the individual has allowed his hatred for those different from him to interfere with those different ones' ability to live their lives.
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Old 03-29-2007, 06:35 PM   #75
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And one important point, individual rights are not mutually exclusive to diversity and equal rights.
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