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Old 03-31-2007, 08:52 PM   #166
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Sometimes the source is just crap.

Yolland gave great evidence, your conclusion that women do have an "advantage" in the custody question is right, the reasons are hilarious.
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Old 03-31-2007, 08:52 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


What about when the evidence doesn't fit paranoid conspiracy theorists' views? What about yolland's uncomfortable facts?
Yolland's 'uncomfortable facts' actually very much back up and substantiate the point I was making about fathers not being favoured by the family law courts.

That was my central point, before some of you decided to get side-tracked and focus on trivialities, for reasons best known to yourselves.
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Old 03-31-2007, 09:22 PM   #168
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I suspect those reasons may have something to do with the manner in which you joined the thread in the first place:
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
Feminism is essentially built on a tissue of lies.

In Western societies, from health care to jobs to education to paternal rights , it is men that are discriminated against, not women.

However, I wouldn't expect the self-regarding navel-gazing 'liberal' coterie on here to realise that.
And you weren't speaking of "fathers not being favoured by the family law courts" (a point which no one disagreed with you on)--rather you spoke of "nothing short of an active, prolonged and vindictive assault on fathers' rights" which you speculated was "due to infiltration by extremist feminism of the family law court structure and of the profession of social work", in an echo of the sentiments of your initial post.

I don't like it when people take cheap shots at me or ridicule my claims without building a logical case for their criticisms either, but then I don't generally hand people that kind of ammo to assume my approach is intellectually suspect to begin with. Facts are important, but so is how you present them and what that signals about your attitude towards the discussion. It's nothing personal, and if this topic hits close to home to you for some reason that's none of my business and no skin off my nose, but realistically, it'd be easier to be sympathetic to your frustrations if you hadn't charged into it with the same kind of overblown rhetoric you're griping about people tossing at you.
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Old 03-31-2007, 11:34 PM   #169
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Thank you for the information, Yolland. I didn't think anything in anything I remembered reading indicated that mother didn't usually get custody in both US and UK in the twentieth century. I couldn't imagine that modern day feminism had effected that change.
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Old 03-31-2007, 11:42 PM   #170
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I'm still waiting for some actual facts from the other side. Not just a website.
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Old 04-01-2007, 04:01 AM   #171
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To be fair, unlike the history of women's legal status, that isn't the sort of topic anyone in here is likely to have studied in college or read much about in the papers, unless perhaps for personal reasons they've been seeking out information on it for a while. And I'm sure, considering even just the few custody stats I quoted, that if I looked long enough I could find something (though probably not from the NYT Magazine) analogous to the Belkin article INDY quoted, suggesting that all the mothers-to-fathers ratio in custody awards "really" shows is that most men don't care that much about involvement in their childrens' lives, and are happy to leave the heavy-duty interpersonal relations and 'busy work' aspects of parenting to the ladies, themselves being 'naturally' better suited for the hard-driving competition and status-oriented world of the workplace (and besides, what kind of selfish guy would put his own parental ambitions ahead of his children's need for a mother's love)? Which, hopefully, is readily recognizable as just as unwarranted a set of assumptions as Belkin's.

This is, I think, related to the shortcomings of law as a social leveller often cited with racial issues. Again, I don't see it as a satisfactory answer to "Why not an ERA?", but gender socialization and therefore sex discrimination encompass a lot more than what affirmative action quotas and the like can realistically address on their own. Different learned social interaction and 'networking' styles, different received expectations about parenthood as an identity, alienation and resignation to something less than desired after repeated embittering encounters with people on The Other Side who don't appear to recognize these things even exist--those consequences (and various others) do add up, and they can adversely affect men as well as women, but it can be extremely difficult to legislate against them or quantify them enough to win a discrimination suit. Attitudes and expectations may change once the most obvious barriers come down, socialization differences may become less pronounced, but it's a slow and gradual process and often too easy to deem completed to any 'reasonable' person's satisfaction, especially if you're not in the historically most adversely affected group. Of course it also happens that people will manipulate a protected status and try to use it as a battering ram; but whether that's happening is often a highly subjective call, and that's where what the stats say can be helpful as a reality check, and a starting point for collectively analyzing why the initially expected outcome didn't occur--and reconfirming the desirability that it should.
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Old 04-01-2007, 04:45 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy



When the evidence doesn't fit their view of the world, I guess the default position of 'progressives' is to dismiss uncomfortable facts as 'a joke'.
Now you are just being ignorant. I gave you a specific piece of the website, and how the logic fails. Why can't you address that?

There were no uncomfortable facts. There were pieces of information that were spinned into sloppy and sexist conclusions.

The website looked like it was written by uneducated sexually frustrated adolecents that are pissed off that their women aren't in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant.
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Old 04-01-2007, 05:01 PM   #173
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I think trevster's smiley is the best "expression" for this webiste
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Old 04-02-2007, 12:06 AM   #174
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It seems possible that one possible reason that women more often get custody then men is because of the traditional belief that kids are "better off" with their mother, as she is the one "primarily responsible" for childrearing. It's more likely the traditonalist viewpoint rather than the feminist viewpoint that is responsible for the more women gaining custody than men.

So, I'd suggest the people that SHARE Fianance Guy's views about feminism are the responsible for the difficulty fathers may face in the family courts.
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Old 04-02-2007, 12:43 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally posted by trevster2k
it's time for men to revolt. Gimme a break!!
Many of the men I know already are revolting.


Hey, someone had to say it.
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