Women as priests...a sin??? Vatican excommunicates 7. - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

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Old 08-06-2002, 11:42 AM   #16
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Perhaps these priests should convert to Methodism or some other denomination that allows female preachers.
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Old 08-06-2002, 01:02 PM   #17
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Perhaps a denomination to which these women have voluntarily donated their commitment ought to show a little more appreciation.
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Old 08-06-2002, 03:09 PM   #18
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
Perhaps a denomination to which these women have voluntarily donated their commitment ought to show a little more appreciation.
How likely is it that the Catholic church is going to change their mind on this issue?

If those women want to put up a massive campaign to get women in the priesthood, then more power to them. But if not, they'll either have to submit to the church's doctrine or leave. I just don't see the point in getting an unrecognized bishop to ordain them...it seems like a token act at best.
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Old 08-06-2002, 03:14 PM   #19
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I wonder if God ever gets angry because some humans, which are all equal in His eyes, limit the spreading of his Word due to trivial reasons, which in this case is gender?
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Old 08-06-2002, 06:40 PM   #20
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Ah Sula...thanks for bringing it up.

Here are some thoughts:

Ask the average Catholic, and they support the male priesthood on the fallacy that there were never male priests and that Jesus' apostles were all men. Hence, the belief is that it was always meant to be a male institution. However, female priests did, in fact, exist for the first 500 years of the Catholic Church. Female priesthood was eliminated, in fact, because the leaders at the time saw it as pagan, as there were high priestesses in pagan religions. A pathetic excuse? You bet.

The primary philosophy behind this emanated from St. Augustine (345-430), whose later followers became noted for "Christian stoicism," a movement characterized as being heavily anti-woman, anti-gay, and, generally, anti-emotional (hence, the modern definition of a "stoic").

Quite simply, the Christian stoic movement (not to be confused with the ancient Greek stoic movement, which was materialistic) took the writings of St. Paul to heavy extremes. Later stoics, such as St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John Chrysostom, went as far as to declare fetuses to be completely male, except the fact that Satan often interfered and made females--hence, women were evil. These were also the inventors of original sin, whereas humans were automatically evil upon birth, due to the process of childbirth through the evil woman. Later on, "original sin" was amended to mean that all humans were evil upon birth, due to the sin of Adam and Eve (which, BTW, the Catholic Church now views as a myth).

The ideal Christian, to the stoics, was a celibate, unmarried male, as sex, even with one's spouse, was evil, because it involved "pleasure." The female was forbidden from expressing any pleasure from sex, but males were allowed to "sacrifice" as it became blatantly obvious that procreation would never occur without a male orgasm. As such, this was the origin of the Catholic belief that sex was only for procreation, and, hence, all other purposes were evil. Homosexuals, as expected, hit their nerves the hardest, as these sex acts could never produce children, and, in their infinite wisdom, believed that children could spawn inside of men, as sperm was the whole creator of children to them (reducing women to "incubators"). As such, this was also the origin of most modern homophobia, as the stoics believed this was the worst sin of all.

My point in all of this is to show what kind of tradition the Catholic Church bases this stuff all on, plus to show the irrelevance of those who originated the tradition. What does the Pope say on the matters of female priests? Nothing. "The matter is closed." Rather than tell the truth about female priests in history and come up with a definitive reason why women aren't allowed, he's contented with people using the fallacious version. I mean, he's technically not lying either; just being silent.

Unfortunately, most of our social taboos have less to do with the Bible than the medieval Christian stoics who took certain Biblical passages too far; passages that early Christians took far more lightly. But what do you do when over 1000 years have passed?

Melon
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Old 08-06-2002, 10:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Bama I am really surprised you are discrediting something because of its source. I am aware that source is important, but I sincerely doubt the magazine would publish such an article in the hope THEY may knock some sense into the vatican. As Danospano said, it was written by an ex-priest. I think an ex-priest, regardless of where his words end up printed, would have some interesting things to say about the church.
Angela_Harlem:

I do not "discredit" the article, but I sincerely believe that the Church should look to its critics WITHIN rather than in PLAYBOY. In fact, they should have listened to the ex-priest when he was still a priest. I probably agree with much of what he said.

I just find it funny that we look to nudie books for advice on how the Church should operate. I also find it funny that PLAYBOY is telling anyone how women should be viewed/treated, etc.

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Old 08-06-2002, 11:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama


I also find it funny that PLAYBOY is telling anyone how women should be viewed/treated, etc.

Well, there's something Bama and I can agree on.
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Old 08-07-2002, 01:11 AM   #23
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Point taken Bama, should I have said dismissed? But neither here nor there. I have never read the magazine either I don't believe, except for once years ago when my friend announced she had gone snooping in her mum's drawers and found a whole bunch of men's mags. We had a quick read of one and it did contain a semi intersting article on I think mens roles in the average household compared to 30 years ago or something. Run of the mill, nothing groundbreaking, but not really toilet reading either.

The church and God are so far removed from each other. Its kinda ironic that a mens magazine has more respect for women than the Vatican.
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Old 08-08-2002, 01:55 AM   #24
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Not that I really have a voice in the Catholic Church...

But...I do have opinions on this issue.

I traced my ancestry back to around 400AD and found two women (Queens) ,Saint Margaret Atheling and Saint Clotild descendant from Charlemagne who were sainted for initiating Catholicism in their country as a faith and reinforcing the catholic church and christianity in early France and Europe. This was MANY people...NOT just one's opinion on the issue.
I fail to see why this particular post "priest" should exclude people who can get a Nation to follow their lead and bring Europe out of the Dark Ages?
Women are a gender and NOT being a male doesn't mean we are pagans. I applaud these women for taking a stand for something they have devoted their lives to and something they whole heartedly believe in.
I also believe that the word "Man" in The Bible should be taken in context in many uses as a reference to the entire species and not just the male gender (Freudian thinking...humpf!) because as a population we have evolved to believe that both sexes have not only a mind but a voice.....just my opinion.
To those women who took the time and effort to become ordained>God Speed their efforts!!!!!
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Old 08-08-2002, 10:58 PM   #25
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The women could have been excommunicated for accepting ordination from someone who's not recognized as a bishop by the Vatican. The ultra-conservative group that doesn't recognize the teachings of the Second Vatican Council is excommunicate for this reason--their big shot ordained priests. I'm a practicing Catholic, and I don't see why we can't ordain women, either. But I also don't see why we should do something because it was endorsed in Playboy magazine.
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Old 08-11-2002, 03:18 PM   #26
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I thought of the ultraconservatives who got kicked out after their big shot ordained priests....the Society of St. Pius X, or SSPX. They think the Church is being run by the Freemasons and have some other views that I think are completely off the wall.
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Old 08-11-2002, 08:57 PM   #27
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I don't post much in FYM, but this is an interesting topic. I am a bit late entering the discussion, but I just wanted to mention a couple minor things.

I am not Catholic. I grew up in a rather conservative wing of the Lutheran Church. Women had a diminished role. Not as extreme as some churches, but there were usually no women as officers in the church and even now there are very few women as ministers. There weren't any rules against it, it just wasn't done.

I often wondered, and still do, why women could not be priests. Mary the Mother of Jesus plays such an important role in the Catholic Church. She is looked up to, prayed to and revered...but women have such a minor role and cannot be priests. It just has never made any sense to me.
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Old 08-11-2002, 09:12 PM   #28
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I found this article last night
http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.ps...08110356000021

So apparently from these two stories we can draw the conclusion that spreading the word of God (if you're female) is a worse offense then sexually abusing children. So let me get this straight you'll get excommuniated if you're a female who tries to become a priest, but you can rape children and not even lose your postition in the church. This makes me so mad GRRRR AHHHH I don't even have words to express how angry this makes me FUCKING.... GAH!!!! Also apparently homosexuality this terrible, deadly sin......but only if it's between two consenting adults, if it's with an innocent child it's only a minor offence.
On another note: good plan with the whole giving abusive priests administrative jobs plan.....that would make it impossible for them to get access to children and is truely a just punishment for their actions *rolls eyes*.....and isn't the statistic something like 95% of child molesters will repeat their crime if let out in the general public?


Note: this post is in no way meant to bash Catholics, some of my relatives are Catholic, but to bash the hypocritical high ranking clergy that turn the other way when they see these things going on...........God sees what you have done.
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Old 08-11-2002, 10:37 PM   #29
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Here's more information on that Playboy article that contains details on life within the Catholic Church (as told by a former priest):

Title: "Sex and Sanctity: One man's story about religious life and what seminaries really teach about sex."

Author: Charles J. O'Bryne

September 2002 Issue
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Old 08-11-2002, 11:18 PM   #30
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It annoys me no end when a Catholic big shot blasts being gay as a terrible sin and then we find out he's covered up for priests who abused children. Likewise when they punish women for wanting to be priests after pushing gays into the closet. I will agree, this stinks. The church needs to judge less and tolerate more. Our big shots have a few messes to clean up. They're going after the wrong people. Being Catholic means that all of this crud really pisses me off because it's my church.
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