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Old 06-03-2004, 12:07 AM   #31
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I am an atheist and I am offended by the ACLU trying to remove the history from the symbol.
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Old 06-03-2004, 04:29 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I am an atheist and I am offended by the ACLU trying to remove the history from the symbol.
Thank you. History, unlike some subjects, does not change, maybe you look at different sides of historical events, from different perspectives, world views, but that doesn't change what happened.

Guess what? I'm a history nerd/buff. Prepare for a lengthy post.

The natives here ("the Americas") of course, had their possessions, lives, culture, altered and in taken away, by mostly Europeans. However unlike the English settlers, the Spanish settlers integrated the natives into their culture, instead of making them live on reservations. It wasn't exactly a joyous thing for the natives, nor were they treated that well, but they did get integrated.

Mexicans/those of Mexican ancestry, are in fact, true melting pots, we got Spanish and native blood, some African, some Irish, believe it or not, German, maybe even French.

About Mexico's "Fighting Irish".
http://www.connemara.net/history/sanpatricios1.php

The United States and Mexico fought a war, Mexico lost, and that's how California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, New MEXICO, became part of the U.S. During the war, Irish, some German, and others, fought on Mexico's side of the war, collectively called, "St. Patrick's Battalion." Some already lived in Mexico, and fought, some deserted the U.S. side.

The Spaniards who came to the Americas, were mostly Catholic, that's why there is a cross. That's why there's so many missions in California, and obviously, the names. You can't count how many cities, streets, are named after Spanish saints. That's what Santa/San means.

Cinco de Mayo is a holiday to celebrate Mexico keeping the French from capturing Mexico, surely some French soldiers may have taken a Mexican bride, or some French civilians as well.

The Spanish brought African slaves with them.

Melting pot never really was a good term for the U.S., why it's a tossed salad now. Mexico though, that's a melting pot.

California was once part of Mexico, that's why I went into that speil about it.

Back to topic, you can't erase parts of history you don't like because they offend you, you can ignore it, but can't erase things, you can't "change the past."

A majority of the people that started what became the U.S., came from Judeo-Christian backgrounds. That is history. Almost all countries in the world, have some sort of religious roots. India has Hinduism, roots of Hinduism, Europe had their own, then became Christianized, that was brought to the Americas. Africa has theirs, Japan, China, to ignore that, well okay, but it would mean stop teaching history in schools. The deeper you go into a country's history, the more likely you are to learn about their religious customs. It's probably why a lot of people don't like history, if you really dig deep into it, you'll come across religious things.

Did you people know, that all 50 states in the U.S. have some reference to God in their state constitutions.

Is that what bites the collective arses of the ACLU, history isn't politically correct, can't be changed. The ACLU comes off as very historically ignorant, with this. Shall we also get rid of all the Spanish names, and Anglicanise them, because that offends people who aren't of Spanish/Mexican heritage.

I know I know this post is totally,
but for crying out loud,
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Old 06-03-2004, 08:55 AM   #33
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Normal

Quote:
Originally posted by thrillme


Thank you. History, unlike some subjects, does not change, maybe you look at different sides of historical events, from different perspectives, world views, but that doesn't change what happened.

Guess what? I'm a history nerd/buff. Prepare for a lengthy post.

*edited in repost to save space (but excellent history report!)

you can't erase parts of history you don't like because they offend you, you can ignore it, but can't erase things, you can't "change the past."

A majority of the people that started what became the U.S., came from Judeo-Christian backgrounds. That is history.
Did you people know, that all 50 states in the U.S. have some reference to God in their state constitutions.

Is that what bites the collective arses of the ACLU,

history isn't politically correct, can't be changed.

The ACLU comes off as very historically ignorant, with this. Shall we also get rid of all the Spanish names, and Anglicanise them, because that offends people who aren't of Spanish/Mexican heritage.

I know I know this post is totally,
but for crying out loud,
As a fellow history buff, I agree.

This part especially sums it up:

Quote:
history isn't politically correct, can't be changed.
I have never been in favor of revisionist history for any reason. We can't change the past to make people feel better about it now. I also don't believe that these crosses are forcing anyone to accept Christianity. Regardless of your religion, or lack thereof, the state was founded by those people and that isn't going to go away. It's part of the story, like the flag of the early settlers or the hats they wore. I can't understand how it is dictating religion to anyone since those missionaries who founded California are not the government and haven't been for over 150 years. I don't believe simply showing a cross on a seal or flag is advocating or signifying Christianity for all residents any more than Bono wearing his rosary and crucifix is advocating it for all U2 fans. It's just a symbol, we all know what it means. Some will accept it, some will not. No one is forcing it on anyone. But history should not be erased.

If this is how far will it go? Like you said, thrillme, the Spanish names? Like somebody posted, the Roman goddess on the state seal? Things could get really lame and picky. In reality though, the vast majority of residents of any city or state do not even know what their seal or symbol looks like anyway unless somebody pointed it out and made a big deal out of it. It just sits there, harmless and benign and ignored. They are useless really, might as well get rid of all of them before fights break out all over the country concerning religion, ethnicity, Native American issues, and don't even get started on here in the South where my state (VA) recently had to change its state song lyrics, or GA, where they had the flag controversy. If we want a symbol that will represent all residents and offend no one, how about the white flag Bono used to carry?
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Old 06-03-2004, 09:29 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by thrillme
Is that what bites the collective arses of the ACLU, history isn't politically correct, can't be changed. The ACLU comes off as very historically ignorant, with this.
Not that I agree with the ACLU on this one, and I do understand where you're coming from but I don't agree with this. I don't recall the ACLU wanting to erase the influence of religion out of the history books (at least not in this case, I admit I'm not familiar with other ACLU projects). My point? We are not always a victim of our history. I don't see why the role of religion in the past would mean you can't remove it from a seal that should represent people today.
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Old 06-03-2004, 09:33 AM   #35
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If it's going to represent people today, get rid of all the history stuff and put smoggy buildings, highways, movie stars and beach bunnies on it. But to be selective and ONLY remove the crosses makes it look like an attack on only Christianity (which I believe this is)
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Old 06-03-2004, 09:54 AM   #36
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I'm not saying they should or shouldn't remove it. I'm just saying history doesn't force us to do anything. You might want a seal to be a historical representation, which is fine by me. But I'm pretty sure most of the people who really get fired up by this have present representation in mind. Be it the ACLU ("the attackers of Christianity") or Christian groups (which would make them "defenders of Christianity" I guess ). I'm pretty sure neither party would even blink if they added or removed a non-religious symbol to the seal.
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:15 AM   #37
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But why only the cross? WHy not the other religious symbols? The missionaries are Christian so why not remove them? The Spanish came to California for defensive and religious reasons so maybe they should not be mentioned at all. The Hispanic population of California never exceeded several thousand during Spanish rule and the backbone of the colony was the missions. I think the cross is an appropriate symbol of California's past, and as someone in here said earlier it is not a crucifix. How the ACLU sees this as a violation of the so called "separation of church and state clause" in the constitution beats me. I think a logical pursuit of this policy would be to prohibit Christians from holding public office as their faith would probably influence their politics.

P.S. All this sort of reminds me of the Junipero Serra controversy in California awhile back.
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:23 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog
I think the cross is an appropriate symbol of California's past, and as someone in here said earlier it is not a crucifix.
As I said, it's all about what a seal means to you. A respresentation of the past or a representation of the present.
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:27 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog
I think a logical pursuit of this policy would be to prohibit Christians from holding public office as their faith would probably influence their politics.
To me, an athiest, religion should be treated as an opinion. It would be foolish to try and stop people from holding public office because they have opinions.
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:46 AM   #40
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I am firmly opposed to political religious grandstanding a la Roy Moore, as I've already said. I am also opposed to revisionist history. You can't change it. You *can* change perspectives and opinions on a certain issue, like slavery. 150 years ago some people thought it was OK. Now it is something we all oppose, regardless of any other political opinions we have. I think something like the Spanish having Catholic missionaries is OK. Maybe I'm biased because I'm Catholic. But this seems to be akin to the French tearing down the Palace of the Popes in Avignon because France is now a secular state and they don't promote religion. Tearing down this edifice would really be throwing history away, they can't take away the fact that the Popes lived in Avignon for awhile. I don't think having the Cross of St. Andrew on my state flag is telling me or anyone else what religion I should practice. No one is telling the atheists that they should believe in God. If it were my city's seal I'd say "leave it alone".
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:37 AM   #41
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Let's transport ourselves to Germany for a brief interlude...

The Nazi 'regime' was and is a MAJOR part of Germany's history, and for awhile the Nazi flags flew high, and were unavoidable. So why is it ok then for Germany to have done everything they possibly can/could to destroy any remaining symbolism of the Nazi regime? You'll probably say because the Nazis were evil, or the Nazis were tyrants... which I'd agree with, but not everyone does.

Now, remind me, what were 'The Crusades' ? Who led them?
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Old 06-03-2004, 01:48 PM   #42
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SO the Missionaries were the equivalent of the Nazi's?


Is that your point?
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Old 06-03-2004, 01:52 PM   #43
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Naturally no one wants to immoralize the worst part of their history, that's also why some of the southern states have been forced to get rid of the confederate flag when people got offended. But the Spanish missionaries who founded LA are not comparable to Nazis or slavery, unless there's some big secret I don't know.



I have some questions about this seal:

1. Who is the person in the center and why is their head glowing? Is this supposed to be an angel, or some other religious figure, and if so why is it still there?

2. What is the ship? Does it represent the missionaries coming to California, or some other Spanish settlers?

3. Why a fish and a cow? LA is not known for its fishing or cattle, at least not anymore. Why are they still there? They might outrage PETA.

4. How many people in LA county even knew what the seal looked like, or even knew one existed, before this controversy?
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Old 06-03-2004, 02:03 PM   #44
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1. The person prominently displayed in the middle is the Goddess Pomona. This alone shows the hypocrisy of the ACLU.
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Old 06-03-2004, 02:06 PM   #45
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I thought so.
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