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Old 01-26-2005, 08:31 AM   #16
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I know we have a few Mormons who are members here hopefully they'll stop by and can answer some questions. I know a little about the Mormon religion, as I dated a Mormon for awhile, and a lot of these don't sound right at all. But I don't know for sure, I'll try and find out and let you know later this evening.
I can't vouche for each statement presented by Macfistowannabe, but orthodox Mormon belief does contain some of these beliefs. There are others Mormon beliefs that are incompatible with core Christian doctrine.
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:33 AM   #17
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I'm going to hit some Mormon web sites. We don't have many Mormons in my neck of the woods, my parents used to know some but they moved out.
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
What's the book?

I know we have a few Mormons who are members here hopefully they'll stop by and can answer some questions. I know a little about the Mormon religion, as I dated a Mormon for awhile, and a lot of these don't sound right at all. But I don't know for sure, I'll try and find out and let you know later this evening.
The book is called Bruce & Stan's Guide to Cults, Religions, & Spiritual Beliefs. It compares differences of the religions in mainstream Christianity to Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Mind Sciences, and a few unique Christian religions such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons.
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Old 01-26-2005, 02:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Found a book that provided interesting views on Mormonism...

This is what they essentially believe about Jesus:
- He was a created being and the brother of Lucifer.
- He was born as a result of Mary having sex with God.
- Jesus had to earn his own salvation, just like the rest of the created beings.
- Jesus is a "greater" being than other spirit children on the earth, but he has the same nature.
- Jesus was a polygamist.
- The atonement of Jesus took place in the Garden of Gethsemane and was for Adam's sin only.
- Our salvation begins with the atonement but is made complete by our good works.

Well I called my friend and asked her a few questions(I think she got a little excited because she thought I was actually looking into maybe joining the Mormon church). So this is what I got;

Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and believe that they are one in purpose and one in heart, but not one in substance. Hence Jesus actually praying to his father while on the Cross.

Brother of Lucifer - well not exactly they believe all to be born of God(all preconceived in heaven before earth). Jesus being the first born and became part of God due to obedience of the law while still in heaven before coming to earth(sorta answers the had to earn salvation). Lucifer is also a creature of God so many have simplified it as being brother to Jesus when actually to simplify the definition we're all brothers and sisters of Christ.

Did Mary have sex with God - Short answer "No". Long answer is way too long for me to go into. But it had something to do with a actually having a physical seed planted from God planted in Mary's womb(but still virgin). But then again I know Christians who believe that.

The whole polygamists thing is a misconception due to early mormons interpreting things for their own good. Sound familiar?

This is as far as I got for she had to get off the phone.
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Old 01-26-2005, 03:16 PM   #20
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Thanks BVS that clarifies things quite a bit. I'm a little confused about the polygamy thing. It's a misunderstanding? I used to know more about this, but I've forgotten alot.
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Old 01-26-2005, 03:34 PM   #21
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Joseph Smith is the founder of Mormonism, and he was a bit of a polygamist.


http://www.lds-mormon.com/12117.shtml

"Eleven of Smith's wives were between ages 14 and 20, nine were in their 20s, eight were in Smith's own peer group of 31 to 40, two were in their 40s and three in their 50s."


There have been 15 prophets of the Mormon Church, the lastest is Gordon B. Hinckley.

Those of you who are interested, there's an article about an interview he did with Larry King here : http://www.harktheherald.com/modules...rder=0&thold=0
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Old 01-26-2005, 03:47 PM   #22
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Yes many Mormons have been polygamist but never was their claim that Jesus was(from what I was told).

And just like a lot of scripture the interpretation of certain writings are up for dispute. Many Mormons stand up against it these days but there are still those that try and hold on to it.
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Old 01-26-2005, 04:00 PM   #23
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Polygamy was historically accepted by the Mormon church, but has now been rejected.

I can understand why a Mormon would want multiple wives, considering their teachings on marriage and the afterlife. Also, it is my understanding that Mormons are urged to have many children because in doing so, they bring a soul to earth who then can, through good works, redeem themselves and earn their way to heaven (or their version of it). Multiple wives make having lots of children easier.

I find the idea of Jesus being "created" by God more out of line with traditional Christian belief.
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Old 01-26-2005, 04:00 PM   #24
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Hope this helps a bit:

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http://www.irr.org/mit/WDIST/wdist-polygamy.html

Several points of interest are highlighted by the documentation in this section:

(1) Jesus was a polygamist
(2) only polygamists become Gods
(3) the LDS Church denies the practice
(4) Joseph Smith denies the practice, even while being married to several women.

Jedediah M. Grant - Jesus and his disciples were persecuted for being polygamists, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 346 (1853)

Orson Hyde - Jesus is understood to be married, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 80 (1854)

Orson Hyde - Jesus was the bridegroom at Cana of Galilee, and lived to see his own children, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 82 (1854)

Brigham Young - "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned," Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266 (1855)

Heber C. Kimball - Opponents of polygamy will be "cut off" by God, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 108 (1856)

Orson Pratt - Jesus a polygamist, God the Father had a plurality of wives. "We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time." The Seer, p. 172 (1853)


http://www.irr.org/mit/Book-of-Mormon-Today.html

Present-day Mormon doctrine, by contrast, teaches that:

three separate gods are in charge of our planet
two of these have bodies, were once men, and
earned the right to become gods through faithful obedience to the Mormon gospel.
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Old 01-26-2005, 05:03 PM   #25
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AAARRRRGGGGG!!!!!!!!



I hate any fundalmentalist wing of any religion that want to continue to/or turn back to treating women like chatel & brood mares ,AND treating 'homosexuals' as being second-class citizens or WORSE.!!!:

Before I became a non-Christian in y early or later twenties, I started becoming a very liberal-Catolic/Christian when I was around 10 yrs old. If I still believedin God/a Supreme Power as presented in Christiondom etcGod/Jesus/Holy Spirit Trinity I'd STILL be a liberal Catholic.

Or I'd become a Episcipalian of NYC's St John The Divine- one of the most beautiful & biggest gothic Churches in the world and ~~* beautiful Spiritually*~~ in the world as well with their beautiful & deep ecuminism, and special celebration & commemorational events along wIth the Chrstmas & Easter masses in particular.

Oh, BTW, deep thank you ofr the [ptoootieee] article.

and don't forget we've got our own home-grown fundalmentalists in Farwell, Dobson, Bauers etc

ANd even they are a bit 'pale' in comparison to the Dominiasts/ Christian Reconstructionists!!!

D & CR's want to definitively make gays & lesbians second class citizens or worse, they may even want to stone gays to death.

ANd for any of you dear U2 fans on here are either people of color, have close friendships or family ties to people of color, or just care about equal rights for alleven if you don't have people in your life currently like that.....

.....on D & CR Boards...there are threads devoted to - since the D & CR believe in Old Testament Law....hold your breaths....Should Slavery be reintroduced in American c it becomes a 'real Christian nation' [gak, spit] "again".

I swear it, NOT joking- I've been to watchdog sites that watch these D & CR's, and through them, and other googling have seen this in articles listed on their actual sites. I beleive if i remeber correctly that they are about split 50-50 over this "issue".

I did this research as part of someone's "do your homework on these people" {D & CR's}prompting.
ANd I thought I knew alot about Christian FundaLmentalists!

for those who don't-- check out for yourselves with a googling.
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Old 01-26-2005, 05:07 PM   #26
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Upholding the honour of his family
Quote:
Kuwaiti 'slit daughter's throat'
A Kuwaiti man has reportedly confessed to killing his 14-year-old daughter because he believed she was having sex.

Adnan Enezi - an employee in the Islamic Affairs ministry - had just returned from the pilgrimage to Mecca.

He allegedly bound and blindfolded his daughter, Haifa, knelt her down in front of her two brothers and sister and then cut her throat.

Forensic tests showed Haifa was still a virgin, police sources said. Mr Enezi is being questioned about the case.

Thousands of women are killed by relatives each year in the Middle East and Asia in so-called honour crimes - usually over suspected adultery, pre-marital sex or after having being raped, or marrying without family consent.

The suspect - who is also undergoing mental health tests - was separated from his wife, and has been imprisoned in Saudi Arabia for 18 months for his extremist activities, the al-Rai al-Am newspaper reported.

The daily said that after cutting Haifa's throat the first time, he swapped the knife for one with a sharper blade as she bled and screamed in front of her siblings.

Al-Qabas daily said the brothers and sister fled from the house after the murder, while their uncle took their sister to a hospital, but she had already died.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4209463.stm
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Old 01-26-2005, 05:18 PM   #27
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I suppose family meetings are pretty uncommon over there. Or at least a little sanity. How is this an HONORABLE act? It's a sick, merciless killing.

NASTY.
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Old 01-26-2005, 06:24 PM   #28
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I agree, this stuff is disgusting. The main character in "The Princess Trilogy" lost her best friend this way. The friend was a virgin who was caught talking to men she wasn't related to and didn't know. Her own father drowned her in the family swimming pool for "dishonoring" the family; he was allowed to take the case into his own hands because she was a virgin. I was really shaken up after I read that stuff, it was shocking and really sad.
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Old 01-28-2005, 09:53 PM   #29
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Hey guys. I just stumbled on this. I was trying to find other board members from Utah and this popped up. I hope you don't mind me dropping in. In no way am I trying to defend or refute anything that has been said. Several have expressed interest in getting a Mormon's perspective. Well, here it is. I'm commenting mostly on people's comments and not directly to the article posted.

Just as a way of introduction, I'm 27, married and have one child. I am a graduate student in Spanish and Portuguese literature at the University of Brigham Young (a private university owned by the church) and I am a Spanish instructor there. I served a 24 month mission to Southern Chile from Feb. 1997 to March 1999, so I have had some experience representing the church's beliefs.

I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, as many of you have done, it is perfectly acceptable to refer to us as the Mormons. That comes from the Book of Mormon which we believe is another testament of Jesus Christ that is a companion to the Bible.

I highly recommend mormons.org. It is an official website of the church designed for friends of other faiths. Although it does not contain everything ever written by a church authority, it does provide a good introduction to our beliefs. The official church website is lds.org.

As far as I understand, ANY spousal abuse of any kind (physical, sexual, emotional) is considered wrong and can end in church discipline and even excommunication. Unfortunately, it is usually men that abuse their wife and children.

I wish I knew more about how Joseph Smith reinstituted polygamy. I really do. Many members still struggle with this
issue. However, any member that currently practices polygamy is excommunicated.

Yes, I agree that the Church of Jesus Christ is pro-family. In fact, our church president, Gordon B. Hinckly, was on Larry King Live a few weeks ago and he said that we are a pro-family church. (King's wife is Mormon, btw.)

Although the church's stance on homosexuality is conservative, on a personal level I have several friends that are gay or have struggled with gender issues. I accept them for who they are and love them just the same. Having said that, there have been differences of opinion because I am married, have a child and believe firmly that gender and sexual orientation are inherent traits that were determined before our existence on earth. I also understand that people disagree with that belief system and I can respect that.

Although some church officials were against contraception in the 70s and 80s, it is a fairly common practice. I even think it is weird when I hear church members still say that birth control is wrong. However, church members are very family oriented and we are encouraged to have children. But the decision as to when and how many is between husband and wife and God--nobody else. One local church leader summed it up best when he said, "The Church will never enter the bedroom." Now, I think that was more a reflection of his personal counsel to that particular congregation, but I have never felt that my sexual practices and family planning were placed under scrutiny by my ecclisiastial leaders.

The issues surrounding abortion are slightly more complicated. Again, I'm not acting as an official spokesperson but I'm just passing along the information that I've heard and the way in which I interpret it. Women that have been victims of rape, incest or when the life of the baby and/or mother is in jeopardy may have an abortion. As far as I know, there is no clear Mormon doctrine that states whether or not a fetus is considered a human being. However, pregnant teens are encouraged to put their child up for adoption if they do not have the support system to raise it. I have witnessed both accounts: a girl from my high school kept her child while another put hers up for adoption.

Now, I believe sex education is something that should be a joint effort between parents and the school system, at least here in Utah. Utah has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the nation, if not he highest. Education is the first step to prevention.

Regarding our basic beliefs, maybe that's another post if there is enough interest. I'd love to take some time and boil it down to a few key points rather than offer a lengthy treatise on Mormon Doctrine. Again, check out mormons.org if you're still curious. I do feel bad, however, when we are lumped into "fundamentalist sects." There are over 12 million of us worldwide. In fact, there are now more Mormons outside of the U.S. We are a world religion.

All right, I think that is enough for right now. Hopefully this answers some of your questions or at least offers another perspective. I'm sure I missed a few points that were raised. and I apologize.

As an academic I always study both sides of an argument before formulating an opinion. However, in matters of faith, I seek God's help in strengthening my intellect and helping discern that which is true from that which is false.

Hopefully you don't think that we're all right-wing fundamentalists. And just for the record, I've never voted for GWB Jr. I am about as much of a Democrat as you are allowed to be in Utah. And yes, it bugs me that my vote does not count in this state.

Feel free to contact me directly if you wish. jameskrause@byu.edu
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:00 PM   #30
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Thanks, new perspectives are always welcome.
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