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Old 01-02-2008, 08:23 PM   #91
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I don't think this is true this time around. The Republicans are the ones who can't come up with a candidate to energize any large faction, much less the base.
yes but unless we simply ignore recent voting records i think it's pretty safe to say that once a republican candidate is nominated that the party will rally around that person, even if they don't agree with their entire agenda.

i think we under estimate the will of the republicans to elect anyone republican over a democrat or independent, where as democrats, ya know, have morals and vote their conscience more often, easily being strayed by third party candidates.

silly democrats and using their minds to vote
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:24 PM   #92
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Oh, now we've abandoned Iraq? No, we just didn't see any sense in starting war after war before the first is solved and stable enough. We didn't see sense in going to war on a very questionable base, with no real backing by the UN and no plan by the government that was pushing for this war.
Yes, we supported the US in Afghanistan, and I think we did so with good reason (although sometimes with bad execution), but we didn't support going to war with Iraq just while we are at it.

How are you going to keep violence low after the surge has ended?
For half a year violence seemed to have significantly lowered, but we don't see how the government in Baghdad is exploiting this security.
Tens of thousands is not much compared with 1.5 million refugees, and from what I've read the food regios where they have fled to is rather equally bad as equally good, so no wonder why they don't stay there.
The question also is, how much security is behind the numbers of people killed, and how sustainable is this security.

I've got news for you, ITS 2008, NOT 2003! I think Germany could provide significant financial and military support for the operation today, but their not. Germans reasons for letting Saddam stay in power are simply absurd, and never mind the fact that the operation was approved by UN Security Council Resolution 1441 and the occupation approved every summer since 2003 by the UN security council.

The surge is not just the temparary increase in troops, but it involves changes in military tactics, political development at the local level, new alliances among Iraq's tribes and militia's, and the continued development and growth of an Iraqi military and police force.

It took years to form a government in Baghdad although they actually did it faster than Germany did after World War II. It will take the Baghdad government years more to achieve many of the goals you mysteriously believe it should be able to obtain in a record 6 months.

The resettlement of refugees takes years and will involve periods when the process is stopped. This is a long process and tens of thousands of refugees returning is a start. Its easy to find problems and area's to criticize given the magnitude of the operation. Its a lot harder to find solutions. Most people who can objectively look at what has happened in 2007 in Iraq would agree that significant progress has been made. Many with anti-American, anti-Bush feelings will never acknowledge any progress in Iraq no matter how overwhelming the evidence is.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:25 PM   #93
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I've got news for you, ITS 2008, NOT 2003! I think Germany could provide significant financial and military support for the operation today, but their not.
No, you're stuck with the bill for this great idea.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:32 PM   #94
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No, you're stuck with the bill for this great idea.
The United States does have the financial and military resources to do this nearly on its own, but why wouldn't a country like Germany not want to contribute to the development, growth, prosperity and well being of the Iraqi people? What because that by doing so they won't be "sticking it to the USA and George Bush"? What a BS reason for not helping Iraqi's in 2008.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:33 PM   #95
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Why not?

Oh, where to begin...
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Old 01-02-2008, 09:10 PM   #96
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


yes but unless we simply ignore recent voting records i think it's pretty safe to say that once a republican candidate is nominated that the party will rally around that person, even if they don't agree with their entire agenda.

i think we under estimate the will of the republicans to elect anyone republican over a democrat or independent, where as democrats, ya know, have morals and vote their conscience more often, easily being strayed by third party candidates.
I read when you posted something like this before,
in relationship to a possible independent run by Bloomberg

what you are not considering is that a 100% vote by either party for their candidate
will not necessarily elect them.

In Iowa for example, the registration breaks this way;

GOP 30%
Dem 31%
undeclared 39%

in CA

GOP 34%
Dem 43%
declined to state 19%

I have not looked up the per cents in Florida, Ohio, Mass, NH and where ever the few "battle ground" states are for 2008


So a well funded campaign by Billionaire Republican Bloomberg could flip a couple of states by appealing to the independents
that were expected to break for the Dems just as they did in the 2006 elections

also, I have a quote from Huckabee I read yesterday
where he says he thinks a run by Bloomberg would be great for the GOP.
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Old 01-02-2008, 09:13 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
The United States does have the financial and military resources to do this nearly on its own, but why wouldn't a country like Germany not want to contribute to the development, growth, prosperity and well being of the Iraqi people? What because that by doing so they won't be "sticking it to the USA and George Bush"? What a BS reason for not helping Iraqi's in 2008.
I don't want my tax dollars going on your misadventure either. You screwed it up, mismanaged it, have how many billions that have gone missing, etc? No thanks, you can contribute your tax dollars to the cause you so wholeheartedly support.

Instead of lobbying Germany, maybe you should ask your Republican president to get rid of his tax cuts.
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Old 01-02-2008, 11:17 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow

anti-American, anti-Bush feelings
Please don't equate these two things - they are not even close to one another.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:02 AM   #99
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Originally posted by Strongbow



I've got news for you, ITS 2008, NOT 2003!


and yet, you post like it's 2004.
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:19 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


The United States does have the financial and military resources to do this nearly on its own, but why wouldn't a country like Germany not want to contribute to the development, growth, prosperity and well being of the Iraqi people? What because that by doing so they won't be "sticking it to the USA and George Bush"? What a BS reason for not helping Iraqi's in 2008.
I thought you were aware that we are already helping Iraqis on many accounts, doing several training measures for Iraqis in Kuweit and supporting them with equipment.

What we won't do is going in there with our military (though I wouldn't be surprised if KSK or GSG9 operations were carried out in Iraq), we didn't back then, and we won't do so now.

It's because I like the US so much that it makes me sad what has happened to the country over the past years.
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Old 01-03-2008, 04:04 PM   #101
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I thought you were aware that we are already helping Iraqis on many accounts, doing several training measures for Iraqis in Kuweit and supporting them with equipment.

What we won't do is going in there with our military (though I wouldn't be surprised if KSK or GSG9 operations were carried out in Iraq), we didn't back then, and we won't do so now.

It's because I like the US so much that it makes me sad what has happened to the country over the past years.
So in 2008, Germany is willing to help civilians in Afghanistan by keeping over 2,000 troops there. But when it comes to Iraq, the Iraqi civilians won't be seeing any aid from German troops on the ground there despite the fact that many of the problems in both Afghanistan and Iraq are fundamentally the same. Given that from a security standpoint, Iraq is the more important country given its geographic location and natural resources, its difficult to see why in 2008 Germany would not deploy troops to Iraq except for BS political reasons that have nothing to do with actual security or humanitarian aid.
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Old 01-03-2008, 04:30 PM   #102
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Because of what the US has done in Iraq. I mean, just looking at that, why would any country in their right mind put troops in Iraq?
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Old 01-03-2008, 04:44 PM   #103
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The reasons why we joined you in Afghanistan, and still see it as being worth fighting for, are so intensely different to the Iraq war, and any of those committments is a stretch of our Constitution, that forbids any attacks on other nations, but allows only for defense of Germany or one of our partners.

I don't think German troops are so badly needed in Iraq, and I don't see any reason why we should send in troops there.
As said before, it's not that we don't help Iraq in any way, we are, so the BS at the moment just gets repeated by yourself.
The BS German politics are what the vast majority of the population is asking their politicians, and I'm sure, if she could, Merkel would happily extend the support just to show Bush that not everyone in Germany refuses to play with him in his sandbox.
You may see resolution 1441 as a legitimation of the UN for this war, but we don't. We didn't support the war back then, and we don't do so now, for many reasons that are still valid today.

From a security standpoint, we would have to be all over the Middle East, but we don't see invading country for country as enhancing our security.

Humanitarian aid is not sending soldiers, and we are helping in several civilian ways to provide both Afghanistan and Iraq with training and material aid.
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:23 PM   #104
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
The reasons why we joined you in Afghanistan, and still see it as being worth fighting for, are so intensely different to the Iraq war, and any of those committments is a stretch of our Constitution, that forbids any attacks on other nations, but allows only for defense of Germany or one of our partners.

I don't think German troops are so badly needed in Iraq, and I don't see any reason why we should send in troops there.
As said before, it's not that we don't help Iraq in any way, we are, so the BS at the moment just gets repeated by yourself.
The BS German politics are what the vast majority of the population is asking their politicians, and I'm sure, if she could, Merkel would happily extend the support just to show Bush that not everyone in Germany refuses to play with him in his sandbox.
You may see resolution 1441 as a legitimation of the UN for this war, but we don't. We didn't support the war back then, and we don't do so now, for many reasons that are still valid today.

From a security standpoint, we would have to be all over the Middle East, but we don't see invading country for country as enhancing our security.

Humanitarian aid is not sending soldiers, and we are helping in several civilian ways to provide both Afghanistan and Iraq with training and material aid.
I thought you might try to answer it this way. Forget about the initial reasons for invading Afghanistan in 2001 which your country apparently supported, as well as the invasion of Iraq. Its 2008, and you have two countries that need foreign help in developing their government, economy, and military after the overthrow of two dictatorships.

In an unsecure environment, soldiers are needed to help deliver and provide humanitarian aid. Germany supported the invasion and bombing of Iraq in 1991 as well as the invasion and bombing of Afghanistan in 2001. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Germany has voted against the UN approved occupation in Iraq which comes up for a vote every summer. So again, I ask, why does Afghanistan deserve 2,000 German troops but Iraq does not deserve any?
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:27 PM   #105
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Please don't equate these two things - they are not even close to one another.
Agreed. A very insulting remark.
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