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Old 07-22-2004, 08:41 AM   #16
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
When people say root causes of terrorism they are inevitably going to talk about the poverty and ignorance of the world and that when it is fixed terrorism will just go away, I wish that were so but it is not. Terrorism is a useful political tool that grabs peoples attention and gets them scared, once scared they seek resolution and want to make the terrorism stop. The easiest way is to say that we must adress the "root causes" of terrorism, I would argue that this is precicely the wrong course of action. The "root causes" of Al Qaeda is ongoing US Support the Saudi Royal Family. Now the first thing that happens is that people demand the US stops supporting Saudi Arabia, Bin Laden has calculated this and that is why he used Saudi Hijackers, it ensures that political pressure will be placed on Bush to hold the Saudi Government to account, by giving into US demands the House of Saud collapeses from internal pressure within the Kingdom and an even scarier Regime that follows Bin Ladens ideology can Sieze Power. It has nothing to do with poverty or ignorance and has everything to do with the Islamist Agenda of toppling existing states and establishing a Taliban Style Islamic Superstate that could seriously threaten World Peace, by dealing with the current root causes of Al Qaeda's existence the west would ensure that they will change the root cause as they are given more concessions and become a bigger threat.

I stand by my statement that those that desire to listen to Bin Laden and deal with the Root Causes are useful idiots because they are playing into his hands exactly, the best way to deal with Islamist Terrorists is to upset the Status Quo of the Middle East and introduce a competing political ideology such as the liberal democracy so that Islamism does not become an inevitability for the Islamic World.
Such a simplistic view. You are not looking far enough back as to how and why Bin Laden can recruit these men. His recuits, the ones that he gets to "sacrifice" themselves are the uneducated and poor who are easily manipulated. You said so yourself that "winning" this war on terror will never stop terrorism and you're right because you are just breeding violence with violence it doesn't matter if it's justified in your eyes. The only way to solve any problem is to get to the root of the problem. The idea that deadly force is the only way is no better than the thinking of the terrorists.
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:59 AM   #17
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Can you please tell me about the poor uneducated terrorists that Bin Laden used because for the life of me I cannot find them.

Is Mohammed Atta an example of this - Born into a wealthy Cairo Family he moved to Germany to study in Germany, he is not poor and he is by no means ignorant. This is an intelligent man who is motivated by ideology and was able to plot a very major attack.

You have others like Ramzi Yousef who was very knowledgeable of Chemicals and Electronics, he went to a technical college to learn about them and put his skills to good use in the 1993 trade center bombings.

These guys are not poor simpletons, they are smart and well off men who are prepared to die for their cause. They need the money because it allows them to operate all over the world without ringing any alarm bells, the best terrorist is the least likely suspect. If you can show me the international terrorist who is poor and stupid I will be quite surprised. I do not downplay who these guys are, they are smart and motivated which is a potent combination. Islamism is a political ideology and it is caused by the steady Decline of the Islamic world and an internal desire to see the past reborn, to restore some semblance of its former glory by annihilating the enemies of Islam and demanding servitude of those that remain. I think that by overlooking this and going to the relative safety of the politically correct - It's our fault for not fixing the problems of the world - is an expression of profound ignorance that I find quite staggering.

The Global Peace through Deadly Force was a sodding sig that uses a statement I would agree with in certain situations, it is not some sort of underlying answer to everything that I think we should just blow people up to solve problems. I think that we should fight terrorism properly through infiltration and surgical strikes and not by invading every single country that ever had any link to terrorists. If thinking that the best defence is a good offence is no better than the terrorist then surely I must have some ideas on par with Osama himself.

Quote:
"Americans accuse our children in Palestine of being terrorists-those children, who have no weapons and have not even reached maturity. At the same time, Americans defend a country, the state of the Jews, that has a policy to destroy the future of these children. We are sure of our victory against the Americans and the Jews as promised by the Prophet: Judgment day shall not come until the Muslim fights the Jew, where the Jew will hide behind trees and stones, and the tree and the stone will speak and say, 'Muslim, behind me is a Jew. Come and kill him.' "
Hmm, I know that wanting to bring mass murderers to justice and prevent more innocent bloodshed is on par with wanting to exterminate an entire people. Gee I must be equally as bad as Osama himself.

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in order to deny war merchants a chance and in response to the positive interaction shown by recent events and opinion polls, which indicate that most European peoples want peace, I ask honest people, especially ulema, preachers and merchants, to form a permanent committee to enlighten European peoples of the justice of our causes, above all Palestine. They can make use of the huge potential of the media.
This is an invitation to enjoy the peace of the grave, lets take it

I find that the entire violence breeds violence argument is false, there are many more people who are opressed by occupation and injustice that do not resort to terrorism I think that this fact alone should disprove the argument. It is not a cycle of violence (although that is the view that terrorists try to present because it aids their cause because it appropriates guilt to the victims of terror) it is simply a calculated form of politcal violence designed to achieve very specific goals. I will not sit back and appease terrorists by playing into their demands I insist quite strongly that fighting against them and preventing them from achieving their goals is the best way to prevent terrorism and thankfully the governments of the countries that are on the front line in this war are on this side too.
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:49 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Can you please tell me about the poor uneducated terrorists that Bin Laden used because for the life of me I cannot find them.
Not the card carrying terrorists themselves, but their supporters, which would number in millions all over the globe.

I think the point is, there's only so long that 'the West' can continue to screw over 'the Rest' before it will just keep biting the West back in the arse. Sure, go after Bin Laden etc with force, but at the same time TAKE AWAY THEIR CAUSE. They are salesmen, operating in a market that has no competition.

Thats where better health, education, doing the best we can to eliminate poverty etc comes in. For example, just wait until someone with a brain and financial backing can step into what Africa threatens to become in 15-20 years and can rally people and convince them that "you know why is happening? Because of THEM" and points his finger at the West. See my point?

There is no point just shooting the salesman and leaving the market open for exploitation. Take away the need for the product.
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Old 07-22-2004, 11:25 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
When people say root causes of terrorism they are inevitably going to talk about the poverty and ignorance of the world and that when it is fixed terrorism will just go away, I wish that were so but it is not.
100% true
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Old 07-22-2004, 12:13 PM   #20
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A_Wanderer:
I'm glad you put that point straight for me.
We both agree that the western democratic system is something worth fighting for. Also i know it isn't perfect it's still the best government (the Greeks?) invented.

But my point is:
we don't have to give the government more power, they simply have to do their homework.
9/11 didn't hapen because the Government wasn't allowed to do whatever they think is neccessary, 9/11 hapened because the secret services didn't do their homework.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3916885.stm

Quote:
The final report comes after two years of exhaustive investigation.

Intelligence bodies have come under harsh criticism for failing to avert the airliner hijackings, in which about 3,000 people died.

An airport surveillance video of some of the hijackers has added to dismay over the ease with which planes were seized.
It was our security-system that failed, not because they did not have the right to act but because they simply f***ed it up.

And The new government was fighting the against the wrong dangers before 9/11 (SDI reincarnation instead of defending the country against Terrorism)

Quote:
"We do not believe leaders understood the gravity of the threat."

"The terrorist danger from [Osama] Bin Laden and al-Qaeda was not a major topic for policy debate among the public, the media, or in the Congress."
Mr. Bush and his Men weren't the first who underestimated the Terrorism threat but if you read what hapened on 9/11 they were simply swamped with the situation. I don't know if Mr. Gore would have bin better in that situation feel free to specualte about it.
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Old 07-22-2004, 12:16 PM   #21
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Originally posted by elfyx
until we address the root causes of social injustice like abject poverty, human rights, education, a broken economic system, and systemic corruption within our governments, we will never be able to eliminate terrorism. Terroristic ideas are not natural; they must be bred. We must eliminate the breeding grounds with as much love, tolerance, and wisdom as possible.
How many suicide bombers killed in the name of "poverty" "human rights" "education" or a "broken economic system"???

Last big attack that occurred a couple years back, many of the participants came from wealthy countries.

While your proposal sound nice in theory, it does not match the workings of the real world and turns a blind eye to a significant factor.
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Old 07-22-2004, 12:22 PM   #22
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


How many suicide bombers killed in the name of "poverty" "human rights" "education" or a "broken economic system"???

Last big attack that occurred a couple years back, many of the participants came from wealthy countries.

While your proposal sound nice in theory, it does not match the workings of the real world and turns a blind eye to a significant factor.
Well, yes, one wealthy country, Saudi Arabia. Might it be fair to say that they were motivated by pure, unmitigated hatred?
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Old 07-22-2004, 01:06 PM   #23
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nbcrusader:

Povertry certainly isn't the only problem down in the Arabic countries but an unemployment rate of 70% in Iraq certainly helps to find people who have nothing to loose and therefore are easier to get into radical ideas.
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Old 07-22-2004, 01:35 PM   #24
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There are plenty of people who live in poverty (with nothing to lose, so to speak) who do not resort to terrorism. I'd say the majority of the poor are peaceful, loving people. This does not alleviate the wealthy of an obligation to help.

Yes, Verte, it is fair to include pure, unmitigated hatred as a motivation.
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Old 07-22-2004, 03:48 PM   #25
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Let's not be so short-sighted.

Terrorism is bread of fear and illusion in the heart, no matter the intention. There is nothing more that breeds fear in the heart than social injustices, physical, emotional, and spiritual.

Unless and until we address these realities, which manifest in many of the ways I described, and more, terrorism will find fertile ground in the fear of a man's heart. Because Wanderer is right in that it is an effective political tool, but only if we let it. Let's not overestimate the power of a fightened, and overwhelmed ego.

A terrorist doesn't need to bomb in the name of economic justice for example, but economic injustice contributes to the collective mind-set that allows terrorism to not only root, but also help paralyze its victims.

It is the social injustices in the world that indoctrinate us to an ego-driven reality of control, external authorities, and "necessary" evils. It is unnecessary competition based in ignorance, and no evil is ever "necessary".

Terrorism is a mindset that can not exist in love, yet it thrives in fear, and hate, and violence. Yet we strive to combat fire with fire? Violence with violence? We are held in officially-sanctioned fear by constant security threats, duct tape, and other such propaganda, all designed to surrender our rights and freedoms to external authorities. The cycle of karma turns and turns and love and grace is the only transcendance. We seem to have forgotten how our spiritual energies work. The only way out of this mess is through love, and only love.

I don't give a flip about what the terrorist thinks, wants, or is trying to manipulate us to do. Unless our actions and intent is based in love, and the spread of love, justice, truth, joy and peace we will, as we have always done, fail at eliminating the root cause of all evils, terrorism included.

We HAVE to start somewhere. To allow grace into our lives, globally, we have to eliminate the DIS-graces of the world. Why is this so hard to understand? Because it's not the 'easy' or 'quick' fix? Because it's not profiteering?

It's even easier to actually manifest. We don't have to "do" anything. We just have to be. And all that we have to be is love. Devine grace (or whatever else you wish to call it) will take over from there, manifesting realities in which there is simply no place for terrorism to take hold. Our actions will spontaneously heal instead of divide and control.

Sound all wishy-washy? Too out-of-touch with the mundane reality? I tell you it's going to have to be Love and Peace or else...

You heal terrorism by healing the terrorist's heart. It may have to be 'tough-love' but it is love nonetheless.
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Old 07-22-2004, 06:46 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Can you please tell me about the poor uneducated terrorists that Bin Laden used because for the life of me I cannot find them.

I ask you once again to re-read what I said.
Quote:
His recuits, the ones that he gets to "sacrifice" themselves are the uneducated and poor who are easily manipulated.
You couldn't have terrorism if it wasn't for the thugs with the guns and bombs strapped to themselves. You think Bin Laden is going to do the work himself? No way. It would be like building a skyscraper with just the general contractor, it can't be done, you need a crew the ones who work for the smallest pay, the ones who get dirty and risk their lives. Most bricklayers probably like their jobs but if they had the oppurtunity to do more, they probably would. We wouldn't have terrorism if it was just Bin Laden and a few other rich men with an agenda, there's no way they are going to do the dirty work.

No one said they are killing for these things they are killing as a result of these things.

NBC, same with the poor and homeless here. If you had a group here in the states that had an agenda and had the carisma and the funding, guess where they would start recruiting...the desperate and ignorant. Just look at the KKK for example how many educated versus uneducated, have you ever seen how the recruitment works for them or neo-nazis? So no one can sit there and convince me that economics and education have nothing to do with it and that violence is the only answer.
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:04 PM   #27
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
NBC, same with the poor and homeless here. If you had a group here in the states that had an agenda and had the carisma and the funding, guess where they would start recruiting...the desperate and ignorant. Just look at the KKK for example how many educated versus uneducated, have you ever seen how the recruitment works for them or neo-nazis? So no one can sit there and convince me that economics and education have nothing to do with it and that violence is the only answer.
Which problem is easier to solve? Given the problem of poverty is as old as mankind, and is essentially "unsolveable," why would attention be placed on the "potential recruits" side of the equation (a very large number) and overlook the core problem.
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:17 PM   #28
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Which problem is easier to solve? Given the problem of poverty is as old as mankind, and is essentially "unsolveable," why would attention be placed on the "potential recruits" side of the equation (a very large number) and overlook the core problem.
What harm could one man do on his own? You can't build a building on your own, you can fly 3 planes into buildings on your own. There will always be psychos not even modern medicine can solve that. But more than likely a psycho like Bin Laden who doesn't have an "army" to hide and protect him would be locked up for life or dead by now with very little to no casualties.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:31 PM   #29
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Even if the problem of poverty is "unsolveable," so to speak, we could be doing much more than we are. People and their governments alike don't do what we could be doing to help to at least cut down on poverty, even if, as Jesus reminded us, the poor shall always be with us.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:53 PM   #30
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No one is saying we should ignore poverty, lack of education, etc.

It does not seem well thought through, however, as a "solution" to terrorism.
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