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Old 07-02-2006, 09:24 AM   #31
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Just to clarify, I was not including AEON in the many Christians of my paragraph 2 above. That is beyond the parameters of this thread and I do not recall the specifics of his other posts to include him in my statement. It was an observation of what I have often seen, not a generalization of Christians, many of whom I admire greatly.
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Old 07-02-2006, 11:30 AM   #32
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Originally posted by melon
"Personalism" is a competing Christian philosophy that I learned within my 12 years of Catholic school education. I believe you have said that you are a seminarian (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'm surprised that you've never heard of it.

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Honestly, I had not heard of it before you linked to it. Of course, we do not cover every Christian Philosophy, and I personally use my electives to study other religions, not other Christians.

During the quick research I did yesterday, it seems that personalism has had more "traction" in the Catholic tradition - which is probably why you came across it and I did not.

I can see how personalism counters evolutionist and naturalist philosophies - but I still do not see how the "people have value" premise competes with standard Christian thinking.
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Old 07-02-2006, 11:45 AM   #33
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I merely find it bewildering when many Christians cite Paul scripture and verse and dance around the words of Jesus. Simple commandment, but bitterly hard--not as easy as making sure you follow the checkoff sheet on the other commandments,
Obedience comes after faith, and unless it is motivated by love, is just about useless. I personally do not know many Christians that dance around the words of Jesus, but I also do not no many that simply stop at the words of Jesus and ignore the rest of the Bible. I simply believe that God's moral laws are eternal, as the Bible makes clear to me, and that Jesus Himself tells me that I will show my LOVE for Him by obeying Him. (nbcrusader posted quite a few passages that address this directly in another thread)
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which Melon made infinitely clear allows a whole myriad of loopholes which the great commandment does not, which I think was the point Melon was making.
I actually do not disagree with Melon in principle - I think we disagree on the application.

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I am more inclined to trust my own understanding than I am to trust yours, no disrespect intended. You're not asking me to ask for guidance, you're asking me to listen to you and your interpretation. "Lean not on Aeon's understanding."
Please, DO NOT rely on AEON's understanding! I will share the conclusions (and the questions) that I have come to in my own studies, but I encourage anyone that wants to understand the Scriptures to study them for themselves, and to look at competing interpretations (as well as Orthodox ones).
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Old 07-02-2006, 05:34 PM   #34
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In fact it is much harder than anything I've heard proposed so far.
Bingo! And that's what I think riles up so many people, because living your life this way leaves no room or excuses to justify man-made prejudices. And so I think it would force many "believers" to reevaluate how "Christian" they are are, in practice.

I think, of course, that that would be nothing but a good thing.

Melon
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Old 07-02-2006, 08:04 PM   #35
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Originally posted by melon


Bingo! And that's what I think riles up so many people, because living your life this way leaves no room or excuses to justify man-made prejudices. And so I think it would force many "believers" to reevaluate how "Christian" they are are, in practice.

I think, of course, that that would be nothing but a good thing.

Melon
I cannot think of a single passage in the New Testament that justifies man-made prejudices (and that can stand up to scrutiny). Being of the "evangelical" persuasion, I do not hear man-made prejudice being preached or condoned. Jesus is about breaking down man-made barriers, not fortifying them. We also have to remember, that while He spent most of His time with "sinners" - He remained sinless. But sin has little meaning to non-believers. It is only when the purity of Christ enters into our being, and we have a regenerate spirit, do we truly understand the consequences of sin.

What I hear, and what I hope to one day preach - is that the only way to know God is through a relationship. You can know OF God, you can know ABOUT God, but the only way to KNOW God is by having a personal, active relationship with Him.
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Old 07-03-2006, 06:32 PM   #36
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Melon, thank you for the comments regarding personalism (a rather new philosophy) and essentialism. Having done my last four years of primary education (9-12) at a Catholic school, I can definitely see the underlying influences of personalism in the Catholic school environment. It was especially evident in the realm of the abortion debate, where many supporters quickly slide to materialism to ease the conscience. I think the key to our understandings is the degree to which personalism naturally exists in (or was drawn from) Scripture vs. coupling it with Positivism. In some respects, the elevation of personalism over, in place of or instead of God is a popular trend. The human tendency is to take the principle “only persons have value” and add the conditional phrase “but some have more value than others.”

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
I cannot think of a single passage in the New Testament that justifies man-made prejudices (and that can stand up to scrutiny). Being of the "evangelical" persuasion, I do not hear man-made prejudice being preached or condoned. Jesus is about breaking down man-made barriers, not fortifying them. We also have to remember, that while He spent most of His time with "sinners" - He remained sinless. But sin has little meaning to non-believers. It is only when the purity of Christ enters into our being, and we have a regenerate spirit, do we truly understand the consequences of sin.

What I hear, and what I hope to one day preach - is that the only way to know God is through a relationship. You can know OF God, you can know ABOUT God, but the only way to KNOW God is by having a personal, active relationship with Him.
I think AEON sums up a good part of the discussion here. Failed application should not replace proper understanding of Scripture.
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