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Old 05-15-2008, 03:14 PM   #16
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Originally posted by melon
I read an editorial today, and was reminded of this thread.

http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen/besen.htm

One in ten of London's gay men are reportedly HIV positive.

This stat is not from some crazy theofascist site, but from a gay news site:

( http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6205.html )

Given that London is one of the least homophobic societies on the planet, this scary statistic blows a massive hole in the argument that trying to change sexual behaviour among gay people in any way is just another form of homophobia.

There will always be religious bigots of one sort or another, and religious-inspired or any other homophobia must always certainly be condemned. But arguing, as some gay activists do, that the ONLY issue worth discussing with regard to HIV/AIDs is how religious homophobes exploit the issue for their own purposes, is dangerous, delusional, and costs lives.

Whereas Matt Foreman is seemingly a bigot for trying to save lives.

It's a funny old world.
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Old 05-15-2008, 04:28 PM   #17
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Originally posted by financeguy
[B]

One in ten of London's gay men are reportedly HIV positive.

is this a shocking statistic to you? much of this has to do with the fact that people who have been infected are living long lives now, so they're not dying off.

every year, approximately 40,000 people in the US become infected, and the percentage of those who are gay has actually dropped significantly since the 1980s. and the overall number of HIV positive people in the US continues to grow since 40,000 people are not dying every year because of AIDS.




[q]Given that London is one of the least homophobic societies on the planet, this scary statistic blows a massive hole in the argument that trying to change sexual behaviour among gay people in any way is just another form of homophobia.[/q]

you're really overreaching here. who has tried more to change the sexual habits of gay people than gay people themselves? who has done a better job in both condom promotion and then condom use than gay men? you should take a look at the work done by the GMHC in the past that has led to a veritable revolution in sexual behavior over the past 25+ years. gay people have changed their behavior -- condoms are de rigeur these days (though obviously some have unprotected sex), and i'd argue that a far greater % of gay one night stands are protected than a % of straight one night stands.

the issue is the pathologizing of gay sex as *inherently* unsafe, that the very act of anal sex -- protected or not, between two disease-free partners or not -- is somehow *inherently* more dangerous than heterosexual intercourse (we'll even leave aside heterosexual anal intercourse).

if two disease free men have unprotected anal sex, diseases don't just arise in the friction. likewise, one HIV+ man who uses protection is highly unlikely to infect the HIV- man he's having sex with.

so it's not the act, it's the circumstances surrounding the act -- JUST like with heterosexual sex.

this is the issue. and it's this distinction that right wing groups are trying to ignore.




[q]But arguing, as some gay activists do, that the ONLY issue worth discussing with regard to HIV/AIDs is how religious homophobes exploit the issue for their own purposes, is dangerous, delusional, and costs lives.[/q]

who does this? how? where? while it's perfectly accurate to show that the Religious Right has used AIDS to stigmatize gay people since the early 1980s. and it is perfectly accurate to say that communities with greater homophobia -- i'm thinking of african-american and latino communities in the US ... i would imagine there are corresponding UK communities -- have greater rates of HIV infection. and, yes, this is due to a variety of reasons not least of which is the closet and a life lived on the "down-low" where same-sex encounters are often furtive, spontaneous, and under-the-influence.
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Old 05-15-2008, 07:21 PM   #18
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It's a funny old world where those who pride themselves on being about stats and numbers can twist one number to their liking.

Thanks Irvine511 for making such a concise and level-headed response. I found myself looking for the :bitemytongue: smilie and then leaving when I couldn't find one...
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