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Old 03-20-2008, 12:11 AM   #31
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Originally posted by financeguy


Actually, I'm merely posing the question. But yes, I'd consider it reasonably likely that increased particpation rates are one of the factors driving the growth in property prices - and, of course, associated mortgage costs - that we have seen in recent years.
But aren't you ignoring what the opposite would be? Where would we be if women hadn't increased the participation?

How can you say it definately has negative effects, but then explain that with "I'm merely posing the question"? That makes no sense.

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Originally posted by financeguy


I'd like you to explain what you mean by 'better off' in this context.
Well, once again, I'm looking at context.

You stated "we would be foolish to completely ignore the negative effects of the 'gender revolution' - for example, as Yolland mentioned, both parents these days having to work outside the home to give anything like a reasonable standard of living for their kids."

Then when asked, you very next statement was the Ceteris paribus. So you obviously see this as a "negative effect".
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:12 AM   #32
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I think the man who wrote the article is making a hell of a lot of generalizations. Can any of the things he's mentioning contribute to the development of depression? Sure, in some women they can. but not in all. He's also vastly oversimplifying by drawing a direct line of causation from feminism to depression.

Also, as others have pointed out, there is no way to get reliable data about depression rates pre-feminism, due to stigmatism and under-reporting, and also due to data collection methods employed back then. As well, many believe that male depression is still underreported, making the comparison between male and female rates questionable, at best.
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Old 03-20-2008, 08:03 AM   #33
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Originally posted by anitram
I love when men write articles explaining to us women why we feel the way we feel. Classic.
Yes, and it's Dennis Prager. Like Bono's shades said, considering the web site..

There are many societal ills and personal situations that can make people depressed, but why look into those when you have an agenda. Depression is a complex problem.

Why are men depressed?
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Old 03-20-2008, 08:16 AM   #34
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Why are men depressed?
I'm sure someone will blame feminism for that too.
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Old 03-20-2008, 08:25 AM   #35
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This is what he said about Keith Ellison, so I really can't take his opinion on anything too seriously.

Minnesota Monitor


Ellison's Oath On Koran Roils Conservatives
by: Abdi Aynte
Thu Nov 30, 2006 at 11:36:44 AM

Before he became the nation's first Muslim elected to Congress, Democrat Keith Ellison was called "unfit" for Congress by his Republican opponent. And that was just the beginning.

Ellison is setting yet another precedent in January when he takes the oath of office on the Koran, Islam's holiest book, an event that evoked conservatives to accuse him of deviating his allegiance from the Constitution to Allah.

On Tuesday, conservative radio talk show host and columnist Dennis Prager wrote: "America is interested in only one book, the Bible." Directly addressing Ellison, he added "If you are incapable of taking an oath on that book, don't serve in Congress."

Ellison said that he's not changing his mind about the sacred text he's swearing on.

"The Constitution guarantees for everyone to take the oath of office on whichever book they prefer," he said in a telephone interview. "And that's what the freedom of religion is all about."


According to Roll Call, the Capitol Hills' newspaper, swearing on a particular sacred text is a symbolic, optional affair for House members who would like a photo-op with the Speaker of the House at the end of the mass swearing-in ceremony, which has no specific religious denomination.

In his scathing article, Prager barely stopped short of calling Ellison a racist, but he said that allowing Ellison to swear on the Koran is akin to allowing a "racist" to choose "the Nazis' Bible for his oath."
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:21 AM   #36
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[hijack] Fearmongering and anti-Muslim bigotry aside, isn't it self-evident that an oath sworn by a Muslim would mean more if sworn on a Koran rather than a Bible? I mean, if you're not a Christian isn't swearing on a Bible about the same as swearing on a dictionary, a phone book, whatever? Just a stupid, stupid thing to holler about, and just old grist for the conservative hate-mill. [/hijack]

It seems clear to me why you might find more depression in today's woman. I would think the type-A career woman or the single working Mom would likely deal with more stress than their stay-at-home counterpart from the '50s. Independance isn't all sunshine & puppies...but I'd guess most women wouldn't go back to being kept, cared for, and dominated by a man. A gilded cage is still a cage.

Also I'm skeptical of any attempt to gather data on rates of depression in women in the past. I don't think you'd find many women diagnosed with depression back then, but that doesn't mean they weren't depressed. I think Prager is just looking for an excuse to bash feminism (shocking, I know).
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:42 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by CTU2fan
Also I'm skeptical of any attempt to gather data on rates of depression in women in the past. I don't think you'd find many women diagnosed with depression back then, but that doesn't mean they weren't depressed.
You mean in the same era when the pain associated with menstruation was all in their heads?
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Old 03-20-2008, 01:32 PM   #38
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They did find a cure for hysteria.
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Old 03-21-2008, 01:49 PM   #39
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Depression and unhappiness have always existed. I'm sick of the feminism is always blamed if women aren't 100% joyful in their lives. I've suffered from clinical depression for years, but if I didn't have the choices feminism gave me, I would have been much worse off.

I think what is different is we are much more open as a culture. We feel more comfortable discussing issues that were considered taboo just 50 years ago. Sometimes we go too far but it's a good thing that today depression, rape and domestic violence are treated as serious issues and not written off as all in our heads or something we had coming, well, usually.

Anyway, a while back I told all of you about an article I wrote about feminism. I found the article, dusted it off and posted it on my blog. Enjoy.

http://popcorninmybra.blogspot.com/2...irty-word.html

Feminism: It's Not a Dirty Word

"Femi-nazi, hairy-legged, man-hating, anti-family..." These are just a few words used to describe feminists. Is it any wonder why women who benefit from the hard work of past feminists do not attach themselves to feminism? Who wants to be called such hateful names? Yet, many women agree with feminist causes and victories.

Why do women get uncomfortable with the word feminism? Do they let stereotypes and name-calling mar a simple word? According to the Webster New College Dictionary, feminism is the "advocacy of increased political activity or rights for women." Rather simple, right? Feminism is not such a scary word after all.

However, feminism can't be summed up in one simple definition. Let us look into feminism further. According to feminist historian, Gerda Lerner, feminism is:

-An idea advocating equals rights to men
-A movement to obtain these rights
-A body of theory women have created
-A belief in the necessity of a huge social change to increase the power of women

Ultimately, feminism is a societal shift in attitudes towards women and what they can do. Not so long ago women were considered the property of their husbands or fathers. They could not get an education beyond the basics or make legal decisions. Less than one hundred years ago, women did not even have the right to vote. Now we have women senators, mayors, and governors. And next year the United States might even have a female president. Thanks to feminism, women are CEOs and athletic superstars. Women (and men) who are feminists can be found in the boardroom and the kitchen. They work as entrepreneurs, writers, professors and doctors.

Yet, there is work to be done. Women still make less than men for doing the same job. Reproductive rights are on shaky ground. Sexual harassment is still a problem in the work place. And domestic violence affects far too many women. Sadly, some of the most vocal opponents of feminism are other women like Phyllis Schlafly and Dr. Laura Schlessinger. Anti-feminists can also found all over the Internet. For research, I read a few anti-feminist blogs. Some of these women (yes, I said women) are against women voting, going away to college and working outside the home. They think no women should have leadership positions. And if a woman gets raped it's usually her fault. The anti-feminists' call to a return to the dark ages makes my stomach churn.

Thanks goodness strong feminists are putting up the good fight against such antiquated ideas. Whereas older feminists looked to Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan for guidance, and marched in the streets for our rights, Generation X and Generation Y are making their voices heard on both the Internet and through alternative magazines. Young feminists are creating a culture that is both strong and feisty, and champions feminist-minded causes. A magazine like Bitch: A Feminist to Pop Culture takes a critical look everything from celebrity philanthropy to the portrayal of working women in film history. And in another favorite magazine of mine, Bust, you'll read articles on everything from alternative crafting to Mormon feminists homemakers (no that is not a typo).

On the Internet, feminist blogs and websites support feminist causes while making readers aware of those who want to take away the rights of women. These blogs and sites are often witty and always wise. And my day isn't complete if I don't read some of my favorites including Feministing, Feministe and Pandagon.

You may be wondering why I'm writing about feminism when this is a pop culture blog? Well, first of all. It's my blog. I can write about what I want. Secondly, I consider myself a feminist and I'm not afraid to admit it. Thirdly, March is Women’s History Month. And I am so grateful to feminists of both sexes who busted ass so women could become full members of society, including pop culture and the Internet. I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't have accomplished what I have if it wasn't for feminism.
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:49 AM   #40
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I'd actually go on record as saying that both men and women find more happiness in relationships than work, though that is ultimately individual. What's most meaningful to me is time with family and friends. And I doubt, as the say, a lot of men get on in years and find themselves wishing, as the cliche goes, they'd spent more tine at the office.

But then I'm a chick, so what do I know.
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Old 03-24-2008, 08:25 AM   #41
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Very well said Golightly Grrl

In the 50's the stay at home Moms just sucked it up and took mother's little helpers and suffered in silence.
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Old 03-24-2008, 08:43 AM   #42
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What a ridiculous article. Feminism has opened doors for so many women - and if woman are depressed, maybe it has something to do with the way other people absolutely refuse to give women equal rights? I find it so shocking that still, in this day and age so many years after the feminist movement, women are still treated unfairly in the workplace/in society - maybe that has something to do with women being depressed, not feminism.
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:47 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by partygirlvox
What a ridiculous article. Feminism has opened doors for so many women - and if woman are depressed, maybe it has something to do with the way other people absolutely refuse to give women equal rights? I find it so shocking that still, in this day and age so many years after the feminist movement, women are still treated unfairly in the workplace/in society - maybe that has something to do with women being depressed, not feminism.
So much word. I think one of the reasons why I get depressed or upset isn't because of feminism, but because of the way I get treated by society for some of the choices I've made or where I am in my life right now. It's as if I'm less of a woman because I'm single, don't have kids and self-supporting.

Out of curiosity, I started reading blogs by women who are very conservative, hyper-”Christian”, and extremely anti-feminist. They believe in strict gender roles (women shouldn’t even be allowed to vote or should vote just like their husbands). They despise any woman who works outside the home, and thinks women should be under the protection of a father or husband.

But for all of their talk of being modest, meek and submissive to their husbands, they are some of the most smug, arrogant people I have ever come across on the Internet. They are like high school mean girls who never grew up. They can’t even handle a slight disagreement. Most of the comments they get are total ass-kissing, and comments that disagree with them either don’t get published or are rebuffed with a snotty, “Let me enlighten you…”

These female anti-feminists are really frightening.
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:56 PM   #44
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In one of my classes last year we studied the evolution of feminism in America, and how there is a stereotype of feminists as extreme and well, hairy but in reality there are different forms of feminism.

For instance, feminism to folks like Martha and Mrs.Springsteen is probably very different from the feminism I perceive.

This may have already been brought up in this thread but I don't have time to read through it at the moment.
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Old 03-24-2008, 06:35 PM   #45
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Quote:
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They are like high school mean girls who never grew up.
Yep.
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