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Old 03-04-2005, 07:14 PM   #91
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Originally posted by coemgen
Should we chose not to, he loves us enough to let us make our own decisions. I guess you could actually say, in a way, hell is something we chose.
Course, then I'd have to turn around and ask those who think that way why they don't follow another religion just in case they happen to be wrong in the end about Christianity-if they're wrong, they could be punished, too, for refusing to accept another god as the true one. But those people are willing to stick with their own faith regardless of that fact, so I don't understand why some of those same people expect, force (and sometimes even kill) those who don't agree with their religions beliefs to join up-if you don't have to, why should others?

And okay, God loves us enough to make our own decisions...but to have us burn? I could understand sending those who don't accept God to a place where they don't have to see him, but why does it have to include such suffering and the burning and all that stuff? I guess that's what's always confused me.

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Old 03-04-2005, 07:44 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissair135
God wants a relantionship with us, in order to make a positive contribution. God has the morals that we need to suceed. But if we are not willing to listen to god, and the particular morals, then we become selfish, and focus on "selfish and individual salvation".. How many christians give a crap about what goes on in Africa.. the genocide, the starving people? How many of us christians had to balls to vote against the lunatic in office at the White House?

Christians control the western world, yet it remains one full of sin. So Somebody is missing the point.. maybe god is not fully onboard with us.

The war in Iraq was an agression.

It is fact, that once Saddam was thrown out, the americans troops first safeguarded the oil fields. Museums on ancient babylonian history, including timeless and priceless artifacts, were looted at free willl.. never to be found again,

Over 50,000 Iraqi civilians have died in this war, not to mention 2,000 coalition troops,

THIS IS NOT PART OF GOD'S PLAN

This is Satan, manipulating the figure of god to keep the world's most powerful economy, in control of the world's 2nd biggest proven reserve of oil.. IRAQ.

Wish to debate this point... go ahead.

Bush has more in touch with Satan than Jesus.

God bless and peace.

Mark
Oh for the love of your God. Like you need to have God on your side when doing anything ~ especially a God that would sit back and oversee the most vile slaughters of human history, You just pulled figures out of your arse such as that over 50,000 civilians killed and 2,000 coalition troops and then tell us that it is all Satan's doing.

You launch a tirade against Conservative Christians and Right Wingers ~ the permanent bogeymen of the left and then make a statement that if reversed (i.e. Bush says that he believes Saddam Hussein was being manipulated by Satan or General Boykins statement about seeing Satan in Mogadishu) you would call it grade A religious lunacy. God is your own damn inventions and you all see exactly what you want to see in it ~ a god who loves and accepts homosexuality versus a god who hates the sin but loves the sinner, a god who is universal versus a god who is exclusively Christian or whatever. Can't people fucking seperate their politics and their bloody religion or are their heads so permanently up their arses that they have to pull in divine authority to justify their arguments.

Bush is not influenced by God, Bush is not influenced by Satan ~ he is influenced by his own faith and those principles that he believes in whether you like them or not.
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Old 03-04-2005, 07:49 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Oh for the love of your God.
It's a good thing you inserted the word "your" otherwise we might have thought you believed in God or something
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Old 03-04-2005, 07:51 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
God is your own damn inventions and you all see exactly what you want to see in it
"God is your own damn inventions." Hmmm....not entirely sure about that. Speaking as an agnostic one has to be equivocal.
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Old 03-04-2005, 07:55 PM   #95
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God is anything you want Him/Her/It to be. History has certainly proven that.

Melon
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Old 03-04-2005, 07:57 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Can't people fucking seperate their politics and their bloody religion or are their heads so permanently up their arses that they have to pull in divine authority to justify their arguments.
Ah but secularism is a more "modern" development (18th century onwards). Old habits die hard, and egotistical clerics on a power trip are more difficult to deal with.

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Old 03-04-2005, 09:22 PM   #97
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Re: Why does christianity = conservative right wing?

Quote:
Originally posted by swissair135
One of the biggest mysteries to me,

Jesus stood against:

Greed, arrogance, elitism, social classes, segregation, prejudice.


How is the bible in any way, cognizant with god's word?

Just because a few people decide to make lip service to whole abortion/gay thing?

Conservative christians ought to look at themselves and ask some serious questions
I think EVERYONE needs to look at their beliefs and ask serious questions.

If you believe the issues of abortion/gay marriage are the only things Conservative Christians are involved in because of their faith, you have sadly mischaracterized many people that I know.

Do you think the Bible is not in any way, cognizant with God's word?

You do not feel that there are those in the liberal end of christianity that exhibit these or other quoalities opposite Chrsit:

Greed, arrogance, elitism, social classes, segregation, prejudice



I may disagree with the Conservative Christian on an issue or two, but there are more core issues which I think we have incommon that never get focused on.
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Old 03-04-2005, 09:47 PM   #98
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Re: Re: Why does christianity = conservative right wing?

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I may disagree with the Conservative Christian on an issue or two, but there are more core issues which I think we have incommon that never get focused on.
Possibly. Perhaps the most agreeable thread is a thread that sinks.
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Old 03-04-2005, 10:51 PM   #99
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Wanderer,

Point im trying to make is that Bush's Iraq invasion, is more cognizant with Satanic morals than Christian.

Want some figures of civilian deaths in Iraq.. well consider this my friend.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0522/p01s02-woiq.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct28.html

http://civilians.info/iraq/
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Old 03-04-2005, 11:16 PM   #100
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BAGHDAD – Evidence is mounting to suggest that between 5,000 and 10,000 Iraqi civilians may have died during the recent war, according to researchers involved in independent surveys of the country.
from the CSM article from 2003.

The WaPo article references the lancet survey that gave 95% CI of 8,000 - 200,000 killed civilians when they eliminated the Falujah cluster. It is simply not plausible. The figure of 100,000 is just so much different than documented casualties and it is derived from statistal analysis with some notable problems (as outlined quite well in this slate article http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/ )

I think that the most accurate can be the iraqbodycount.net figure of between 16,000 and 18,500 ~ which when compared to the ammount of death inflicted by Saddam against his own people throughout the 1990's and early 2000's (as in people killed in an average year not one of his bumber Anfal campaign years that could knock that figure up too much) and weighed up with the possiblity of some instability in the middle east (something that I am very much for ~ considering that it is the "stability" of the Bashir Assads, Saddam Husseins and House of Saud that created the problems we are dealing with today ~ instability can wind up toppling these regimes and bringing about rapid change notably democratic change) is worthwhile.

Liberating people from one of the most abhorent dictatorships of the latter 20th century and quite possibly initiating a new wave of democratic revolutions not seen since the collapse of the USSR is in my own opinion the right thing to do even if it is not the Christian thing to do.
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Old 03-04-2005, 11:38 PM   #101
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A democratic revolution in Iraq?

This issue is way too complex to simplify as such. I can write a 10,000 page essay about the issue of the middle east, and most of the problems are of course caused by oil, and thereby uneven distribution of wealth as of result of oil proceeds. Hence, the founded raison d'etre for Al-Qaeda (if you look past the whole religion/Islam bullshit).

As long as there are abundant proven reserves of oil in Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, there will be wars/terrorism in the middle east.. democracy will never thrive there, unless a self-inflicted revolution occurs... the conditions can only be created by the Western World ceasing their support and contribution to the very tiny segment of the population, that absorbs most of the wealth from the export of oil.

If Iraq had no oil, the United States would have NO intention of "liberating" Iraq from a cruel dictator. And given all the god propaganda that has been associated with the invasion, the god of the bible certainly would not see this as an act of self-defense... because the intent is very black and white, if your willing to accept it.

OF course this is a conspiracy theory right

We are getting off-topic
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Old 03-05-2005, 02:53 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissair135
Wanderer,

Point im trying to make is that Bush's Iraq invasion, is more cognizant with Satanic morals than Christian.

Want some figures of civilian deaths in Iraq.. well consider this my friend.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0522/p01s02-woiq.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct28.html

http://civilians.info/iraq/
Pardon me while I disagree with your interpretation, or shall I quote the rate of death before the invasion which would have a higher number of civilian casualties than the war. Doing NOTHING was equally bloody.
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Old 03-05-2005, 02:55 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissair135


OF course this is a conspiracy theory right

We are getting off-topic

yes, start your own thread in war....we debated this months before the war, months during the war, and months after the war.
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Old 03-05-2005, 05:51 AM   #104
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I'm not a Bush supporter either but I think comparing him with Satan is excessive. I supported him in Afghanistan because of the Taliban's sheer cruelty but not in Iraq, and I can't stand his domestic policies. But I'm not confusing him with Satan.
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Old 03-05-2005, 06:05 AM   #105
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Saddam did more damage than the Taliban ever did ~ he just had the veneer of modernity masking the opression and death.
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