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Old 03-04-2005, 04:03 PM   #31
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personal disputes or not, the idea is to forgive isnt it?

all of the holy books have lots of killing and war in them, they are a side-product of any new religion.

it is quite simple really, i believe all religions preach peace and love in essence. now youre telling me bible condones war? i dont think anyone will buy that. i certainly dont.

if you believe teaching is only possible through punishment, then your logic makes sense. but IT ISNT.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:06 PM   #32
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The issues of forgiveness and punishment are completely unrelated. God forgives people of their sins but he punishes us for them.

While God tells us to forgive our enemies it doesn't mean we avoid war with them. Again, killing should only be the absolute last resort, but sometimes it comes to that. Heck, God even aided his followers in war.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:08 PM   #33
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just war means fighting in self defence. what i believe is any war that is not essentially for self defence is plain murder. unfortunately, the human history is built on conquests, wars, blood and hatred. most of these wars sprang from religious beliefs or greed, to have more land, more gold, more weapons...

define your 'just' war. crusades, they werent just war, they were murder, allegedly in gods name. suicide bombings are not just war, they are murder. invading other countries to satisfy your country's economic needs and fulfill your damned political agenda is not just war, it is murder.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:11 PM   #34
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Shart, I agree with you on some stuff. The Bible says there's a time for war, and a time for peace." Nobody who's read the Bible would argue that.

And Bono may be a rock star, but he's VERY well read with the Bible. You'd be surprised how much knowledge he has as a Christian.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:11 PM   #35
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I agree. But I believe a just war is defending others as well as self defense.

Bono is very well-read with the Bible, but then again there are millions of others who are and I also disagree with them.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:11 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780

God even aided his followers in war.
Are you sure?

Just because it suits the author to write it, does not make it so.

Who dosen't claim this?
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:15 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
interesting logic

are your other conclusions
based on this same style of thinking?
Have you ever seen a parent discipline a child?

Is it done out of hatred? Occasionally by humans.

But discipline is usually done in love. The worst thing a parent could do for a child is to not care about what they do.

I don’t know if this is just a “conservative” thing, but Scripture calls believers children of God and defines the relationship as one between a Father and child. We see God having authority over us and yes, we do get disciplined.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:15 PM   #38
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it might be a bit strange to quote law in a religious discussion, but self-defence, in its legal definition, can be initiated on behalf of someone who is unable to protect themselves. so basicly, self defence and fighting in order to protect others under imminent danger could be classified under your 'just war' terminology.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:17 PM   #39
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Originally posted by all_i_want
and the idea of 'god of punishment' is plain ridiculous.
What are you using to define God?
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:21 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Just because it suits the author to write it, does not make it so.
What are you referring to here?
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:24 PM   #41
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Shart, the problem is these people confuse the NT Jesus with the angry OT God the Father. Who was more loving anf forgiving than many remember. I cannot forget that passage in Hosea where God says to that prophet that He could not destroy the sinning people of Edom, His love was too strong...even though the prophet wanted him to. Darn, my OT is rusty these days. It's toward the backof that Book though. You'll know the verse when you see it. )They claim to speak in Jesus' name but it's really the old vengeful Jehovah they talk of. A common mistake.

And who are you to judge Bono doesn't know his Bible? Pretty arrogant statment, he and his dad used to argue circles around it when he was a teenager. And that was long before 1981. He impressed alot of religious leaders in 2002, so I wouldn't judge.

I found Bush backing down from the UN amendment thing to be the best news in some time. He actually backed down on something. He claimed victory and worded it carefully, but it was still a defeat. WOuld that we followed that strategy in Iraq before it's too late...the insurgents know they have time on their side. They can wait. All they have to do is pinprick us for years. They know.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:24 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Have you ever seen a parent discipline a child?

Is it done out of hatred? Occasionally by humans.

But discipline is usually done in love. The worst thing a parent could do for a child is to not care about what they do.

I don’t know if this is just a “conservative” thing, but Scripture calls believers children of God and defines the relationship as one between a Father and child. We see God having authority over us and yes, we do get disciplined.
I understand this is how you see things

An authoritarian figure.

Many conservatives do also. I believe they want to follow. It is apparent in how they line up behind the Party politics. It is very effective.

And if one lines up this way they are arguing for/ and with the authority of God.

Very comforting and persuasive for them.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:28 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


What are you using to define God?
i dont really want to get into my definition cause it will completely derail the thread, since i already have serious disagreements with the 'god' definitions of the major religions.

what i dont believe is that the god is out there waiting to punish people, send them to hell. whatever we do, we do it to ourselves. god does not send lightining rods from above.

if you see god as a justicar, a judge of our actions and protector of the good people on the planet, whoever they are, you are bound to be disappointed.

i believe god created this world for us, and it is now upto us to decide what to do with it. our actions shape our future, not divine interventions or holy punishments.

now, this creates certain concerns about morality, since religion has come to be all tangled up with moral issues, but just because a person does not follow a holy book doesnt mean they cant behave morally.

i could talk keep talking about this on and on but i dont want to derail the thread completely.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:29 PM   #44
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No. It is not a matter of politics or comfort.

It is what I call a High View of God.

Holy
Sovereign
Immutable

All spelled out in Scripture.

Not a god I can keep in my pocket and call on when I get in trouble. Or one that I can use as the "big hammer" in discussions.

I fully understand why people reject the authority of God. Submission to anything runs contrary to our human desires.
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Old 03-04-2005, 04:29 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


What are you referring to here?
all the scriptures claiming God on one side




If an unbias third party were observing current events would they conclude that the Almighty was on BinLaden’s side?


The odds that they could pull off a complicated operation like 9-11 and have both buildings collapse are incredible.

Then include BinLaden making about 30? recordings and releasing them to the pubic for 4 years without being captured or killed by the greatest super power of all time with unlimited resources.

Well, the odd makers would have had this off the charts.

This makes the David and Goliath story pale by comparison.
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