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Old 03-07-2005, 08:22 PM   #151
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


the God of the New testament is the same exact God as the God of the Old testament.

God IS....Period.
To broaden it out is this God the same God as worshipped by Jews, Muslims and other belief systems?
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Old 03-07-2005, 08:27 PM   #152
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To broaden it out is this God the same God as worshipped by Jews, Muslims and other belief systems?
Are you asking me my opinion....if so....yes I believe it is.

Others, whom I have gone round about this very early on in my FYM carreer 3,000 posts ago would say I am wrong.
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Old 03-07-2005, 09:27 PM   #153
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Wow, this thread has taken some serious twists and turns since it began. I am sure that I will say some things that have already been said, but oh,well.

It seems to me that Jesus was little concerned about political structures in his own time. He acknowledged the Roman presence, but did not advocate its overthrow like many were hoping (probably a part of Judas Iscariots disappointment with him). He said "My kingdom is not of this world" and told the disciples to focus not on earthly political systems, but on "laying up treasures in heaven." How did he say to do this-by denying oneself and taking up the cross by following his commands. What were his commands? Some seem to fall in the Right wing camp, others the left. We cannot just pick and choose what we want out of his sayings and say "Oh these look good. I'll use these for my argument but ignore the other things he said." Both sides are guilty of doing this. However, I do notice that the conservatives (count 'em on one hand) generally acknowledge the whole spectrum of his sayings but disagree that government should be as involved in taking care of the poor. The left/liberal crowd on the other hand generally shoves aside sayings they do not like-What did Jesus say about adultery (simply by lusting in one's heart) or divorce (only in case of adultery)? To sum it up, we must look at the whole of Jesus' teachings if we are to use them for support and not pick and choose like it is a great Golden Corral Buffet (a nasty place I know, but it just came to me).
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Old 03-07-2005, 09:41 PM   #154
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Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog
However, I do notice that the conservatives (count 'em on one hand) generally acknowledge the whole spectrum of his sayings but disagree that government should be as involved in taking care of the poor. The left/liberal crowd on the other hand generally shoves aside sayings they do not like-What did Jesus say about adultery (simply by lusting in one's heart) or divorce (only in case of adultery)? To sum it up, we must look at the whole of Jesus' teachings if we are to use them for support and not pick and choose like it is a great Golden Corral Buffet (a nasty place I know, but it just came to me).
The adultery "exception clause" is a mistranslation of the Greek word, "porneia" ("blood mixing," or "incest"), that originated from the KJV. Hence, you will notice that only Protestant Bibles put in that so-called "adultery" exception clause permitting divorce, while Catholic Bibles have never reflected it. Both history and scholarly analysis prove one thing, though: you can't use the Bible to justify divorce because of adultery, but I guess if you accidentally marry a long-lost sibling (hey, it could happen), you would have Biblical precedent to divorce.

With that, conservatives are only interested in preserving their traditions and subsequent prejudices, while choosing to be woefully ignorant of modern scholarship that may prove some traditional interpretations to be false. I think that adhering to "Jesus' message" is only secondary to their zeal for maintaining tradition (and, by extension, fear of anything changing).

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Old 03-07-2005, 09:58 PM   #155
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Pardon the mistake of "moicheia" v "porneia". I am not a Bible scholar I admit. Your slam of conservatives as being "woefully" behind in scholarship appears to be a matter of opinion though so do not try to pass off your belief as fact.

However, it is still clear that Jesus' commands re:sexuality are not what today's liberals focus on and that is what I was trying to say.
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Old 03-07-2005, 10:09 PM   #156
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Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog
Pardon the mistake of "moicheia" v "porneia". I am not a Bible scholar I admit. Your slam of conservatives as being "woefully" behind in scholarship appears to be a matter of opinion though so do not try to pass off your belief as fact.
Since conservatives do not recognize "nuance" and everything is either "right" or "wrong" or "good" and "evil," I will say this then: I'm right. Now repent and sin no more.

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However, it is still clear that Jesus' commands re:sexuality are not what today's liberals focus on and that is what I was trying to say.
Conservatives are so obsessed with sex. What's with that? Even Dante's "Inferno" placed lust in the upper echelons of hell, meaning that even the medieval times didn't see sexual sin as the worst. And neither did the New Testament, where the primary emphasis is against idolatry and idolatrous practices.

I wasn't about to start this "liberal vs. conservative" spat here, but since it was started, I will defend my belief system from those who wish to label it (God forbid) "liberal."

Religion, as a whole, became bastardized the minute it fused with politics. If conservatives really think that "smaller government" is a religious tenet, then I need no further evidence to show how messed up those beliefs are. No, it's a political idea.

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Old 03-07-2005, 10:14 PM   #157
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Where is the lack of nuance? Or obsessing over sex? Just because i mention it I'm obsessed? I am merely pointing out that many liberals will go to the Bible to justify their beliefs on welfare, healthcare, etc. but only for that, and that is just as political as what conservatives do.
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Old 03-07-2005, 10:22 PM   #158
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Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog
Where is the lack of nuance? Or obsessing over sex? Just because i mention it I'm obsessed? I am merely pointing out that many liberals will go to the Bible to justify their beliefs on welfare, healthcare, etc. but only for that, and that is just as political as what conservatives do.
I'm not saying that liberal Christianity isn't prone to political interference, but it is certainly to the same degree as conservative Christianity.

However, I also tend to take particular exception to those who claim to know "Jesus' entire message" and deride anyone who disagrees with them as "picking and choosing." I think all religion is, by nature, "picking and choosing," because it is impossible to synthesize 1000+ pages of text. Plus, historically, religions emphasize different parts of the Bible to suit their ideology. Biblical fundamentalists of today would not likely get along with Biblical fundamentalists of 100 or 200 years ago.

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Old 03-08-2005, 04:17 AM   #159
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Was it also bullshit when I brought up Klaus, and emailed him trying to get him to stay.

Was it also bullshit when I defended Anitram when she was humiliated by a right winger in here?

The only thing that is Bullshit is the disrespect that some people throw around in here towards others. All four of the poeple I have mentioned have had valid reasons for leaving. So why is it Bullshit? This thread, which I believe was intended to open a dialogue, is not doing that at all.

Why is it Bullshit exactly....because they were opposed to what you stand for? See, I think your trolling in this thread is Bullshit. If I am wrong so be it. I do not honestly believe you want a dialogue with any conservative on their opions thoughts or beliefs.

Why would a conservative give you the time of day, when you associate the president and those who agree with his stance on the war with one of the most horrific villans in history? Why should we take your questions sincerely, when since I have been in the forum, there has been no posts indicating a sincere desire to have a dialogue? When so very clearly you have passed a judgement already?
Wow that's a load.
As far as the BS part, I didn't think it relevant to this thread, not for it not agreeing with my opinion. I very much wish Klaus and Bama were present. I'm not trolling in this thread and would like real answers not one liners. There haven't been any, except for NBC's last replies.

Do i think Bush is the unmentionable - no. But i am afraid and do think there are similarities in the way our media is acting, the withholding of info from citizenry and even worse Congress inhibiting thier oversight ability, and the infringment on individual civil liberties with the 1930's Germany. Are we a facist militarized state - no. Could be become one of course, it could happen to any government. I am not anywhere near alone in this belief that we are heading in this direction.

As for passing judgement already, maybe. But I sincerely want to understand. Your allowed your opinion.
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Old 03-08-2005, 04:27 AM   #160
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Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog
Wow, this thread has taken some serious twists and turns since it began. I am sure that I will say some things that have already been said, but oh,well.

It seems to me that Jesus was little concerned about political structures in his own time. He acknowledged the Roman presence, but did not advocate its overthrow like many were hoping (probably a part of Judas Iscariots disappointment with him). He said "My kingdom is not of this world" and told the disciples to focus not on earthly political systems, but on "laying up treasures in heaven." How did he say to do this-by denying oneself and taking up the cross by following his commands. What were his commands? Some seem to fall in the Right wing camp, others the left. We cannot just pick and choose what we want out of his sayings and say "Oh these look good. I'll use these for my argument but ignore the other things he said." Both sides are guilty of doing this. However, I do notice that the conservatives (count 'em on one hand) generally acknowledge the whole spectrum of his sayings but disagree that government should be as involved in taking care of the poor. The left/liberal crowd on the other hand generally shoves aside sayings they do not like-What did Jesus say about adultery (simply by lusting in one's heart) or divorce (only in case of adultery)? To sum it up, we must look at the whole of Jesus' teachings if we are to use them for support and not pick and choose like it is a great Golden Corral Buffet (a nasty place I know, but it just came to me).
I agree with the Golden Corral Buffet *yuck* analogy. My beliefs are not liberal in the traditional sense, though my politics are.
I don't think they are limited to just the gov't and the poor, but politics geared to help the few not the many.

The care for the environment comes to mind, tax cuts for the wealthy (estate- dividends) plus 1.6 trillion new cuts allowing previously unallowed deductions, cuts in education funding while increasing the military budget.
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Old 03-08-2005, 06:42 AM   #161
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Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog
However, I do notice that the conservatives (count 'em on one hand) generally acknowledge the whole spectrum of his sayings but disagree that government should be as involved in taking care of the poor. The left/liberal crowd on the other hand generally shoves aside sayings they do not like-What did Jesus say about adultery (simply by lusting in one's heart) or divorce (only in case of adultery)?
I never really had any interest in this thread what so ever. I peeked in a few times, but never posted. I usually try to avoid these threads, and this comment is exactly the reason why. This comment is the kind of crap that pollutes FYM. You've grossly stereotyped both sides and not only that but your stereotypes don't even come close to what divides the two sides.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog

To sum it up, we must look at the whole of Jesus' teachings if we are to use them for support and not pick and choose like it is a great Golden Corral Buffet (a nasty place I know, but it just came to me).
This is the statement you should have used as your post. Leave your inaccurate stereotypes at home.
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Old 03-08-2005, 07:10 AM   #162
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I'm sorry about "polluting"FYM with generalities. I did say "generally" meaning I knew I was making broad statements. I did not want to have to dig for specifics that late at night. To call my post crap is utterly ridiculous and inane. My observations come from my own experiences not just discussion here on FYM. I think you can disagree with me without beng stupid about it.
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Old 03-08-2005, 07:20 AM   #163
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Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog
I'm sorry about "polluting"FYM with generalities. I did say "generally" meaning I knew I was making broad statements. I did not want to have to dig for specifics that late at night. To call my post crap is utterly ridiculous and inane. My observations come from my own experiences not just discussion here on FYM. I think you can disagree with me without beng stupid about it.
I called your comment crap, not your post. But I remind you, I did not go as far as you by calling anyone stupid.

I do not tollerate generalizations of any kind. Therefore may be a little unrelenting about it, but I stand by that.

In my experience in here and in the real world these issues you speak are not the issues that divide conservative and liberal Christians, and believe me I've seen and experienced both sides throughout my life. But that's a different subject for a different thread.
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Old 03-08-2005, 08:03 AM   #164
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Originally posted by melon


The adultery "exception clause" is a mistranslation of the Greek word, "porneia" ("blood mixing," or "incest"), that originated from the KJV. Hence, you will notice that only Protestant Bibles put in that so-called "adultery" exception clause permitting divorce, while Catholic Bibles have never reflected it. Both history and scholarly analysis prove one thing, though: you can't use the Bible to justify divorce because of adultery, but I guess if you accidentally marry a long-lost sibling (hey, it could happen), you would have Biblical precedent to divorce.
Melon,

I think you would agree that this is a very narrow interpretation of the word "porneia". My recollectionis that the word is used in many other passages to condemn sex outside of marriage.

If porneia is limited to incest, then many other passages of Scripture do not make sense.
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Old 03-08-2005, 08:06 AM   #165
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I never said those were the issues that divided Christians I merely pointed out two differences.
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