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Old 03-23-2007, 11:59 PM   #76
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Originally posted by Irvine511

but don't you see? two women together is homosexuality, it is NOT heterosexuality. so it's not what you said earlier, a sexuality different than one's own that causes the "gross" reaction, it's the presence of two bodies that one is not attracted to.
You're right, it is. I didn't say none of us guys feel uneasy seeing two women together. I sure do. It doesn't feel right to me. I can't say why some guys find it kinky or whatever, other than it's two women instead of just one. This whole thing has kind of gotten away from my original point that if a heterosexual feels odd or uneasy at seeing two guys kiss, it shouldn't be equated to hate. That's what I'm getting at, which you agreed with.

I love it when you and I actually agree on something.




Quote:

when i was 13, i remembered seeing two men holding hands for the first time when i was visiting Germany. i thought it was weird and a little gross. there are times when i see two men holding hands in Logan Circle and i'm always taken a little aback. it's different, even to me, because it's not something i grew up seeing. it's not a socialized expectation.
See, I find this interesting. Even though you're attracted to men, it was gross at first to see two men holding hands?

Quote:

again, what i've been trying to say is that anyone can retain the "ew, gross" vibe, as well as the "gays are immoral" standpoint; what turns into active, harmful hate is when you use this to deny people basic rights. and this is why the interracial analogy works so well. many people think that black men kissing white women is upsetting. and they are free to feel that and to use the Bible to justify their anti-miscegenation feelings (as people have done for centuries). but they are not free to prevent black people from marrying white people.
Yes, but again, my whole point is that race is different than sexuality. I know you're saying they're the same because people are born that way, but we're talking about skin color verses what you do when you're naked with somebody. Apples and oranges, man.

I agree though, basic rights shouldn't be denied.

What verses are you refering to to justify that crap? I've honestly never heard of any . . . unless they come from the Book of Mormon.
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Old 03-24-2007, 12:13 AM   #77
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Originally posted by coemgen
See, I find this interesting. Even though you're attracted to men, it was gross at first to see two men holding hands?
no, i find myself still finding it unusual. when i was thirteen, i might have thought it was gross, but that was a knee-jerk reaction when reality was different (and i was interested in kissing another boy, but that's a long, long story).

but what complicates this is that kissing or holding hands or cuddling with a boyfriend is as natural as breathing to me. i never think, "weird, two guys kissing," whereas if i saw two guys kissing outside of a gay bar, i'd take notice. i certainly don't think it's gross (now, i might be jealous) but even for me, as a gay man living in a gay-friendly city, gay public displays of affection are so rare and i was brought up without any gay-positive images, that any gay PDA is going to catch my eye.

that's how deep social homophobia goes.



[q]Yes, but again, my whole point is that race is different than sexuality. I know you're saying they're the same because people are born that way, but we're talking about skin color verses what you do when you're naked with somebody. Apples and oranges, man.[/q]


have you met any genuinely racist people? how they think of black people (or whomever) is really very much the same as how homophobes see gay people, and a genuine racist would find a black man kissing a white woman as repulsive as a homophobe finds two men kissing.

and what i'm getting at is that the revulsion we feel is more due to social conditioning than anything else. no, a straight man doesn't want to perform oral sex on a man, and a gay man doesn't want to perform oral sex on a woman. that, to me, seems indicative of one's sexual orientation. that which turns you on. but when you are repulsed by the thought of a sexual act that is not natural to your orientation, that, to me, is indicative of how heteronormative society is.

again, i use myself as an example. i am uninterested in female sex organs. but i know straight men are. and they can do what they want. i have no interest, but i respect their interest, and i don't find it, or them, gross.

but you seem to be saying that it's perfectly okay for someone to find me gross, and that it's a perfectly normal extention of their heterosexuality to deem gayness gross. and i'm saying that the "gross" distinction is socialized and conditioned, it's not intrinsic to heterosexuality.


Quote:
What verses are you refering to to justify that crap? I've honestly never heard of any . . . unless they come from the Book of Mormon. [/B]
i'd have to go digging, but it's no secret that the Bible was used to justify slavery, and to support anti-miscegenation laws, not least of which was in Loving vs. Virginia in 1967, where only 40 years ago it was illegal for blacks and whites to marry.
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Old 03-24-2007, 12:26 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


no, i find myself still finding it unusual. when i was thirteen, i might have thought it was gross, but that was a knee-jerk reaction when reality was different (and i was interested in kissing another boy, but that's a long, long story).

but what complicates this is that kissing or holding hands or cuddling with a boyfriend is as natural as breathing to me. i never think, "weird, two guys kissing," whereas if i saw two guys kissing outside of a gay bar, i'd take notice. i certainly don't think it's gross (now, i might be jealous) but even for me, as a gay man living in a gay-friendly city, gay public displays of affection are so rare and i was brought up without any gay-positive images, that any gay PDA is going to catch my eye.
That's interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

have you met any genuinely racist people? how they think of black people (or whomever) is really very much the same as how homophobes see gay people, and a genuine racist would find a black man kissing a white woman as repulsive as a homophobe finds two men kissing.

and what i'm getting at is that the revulsion we feel is more due to social conditioning than anything else. no, a straight man doesn't want to perform oral sex on a man, and a gay man doesn't want to perform oral sex on a woman. that, to me, seems indicative of one's sexual orientation. that which turns you on. but when you are repulsed by the thought of a sexual act that is not natural to your orientation, that, to me, is indicative of how heteronormative society is.

again, i use myself as an example. i am uninterested in female sex organs. but i know straight men are. and they can do what they want. i have no interest, but i respect their interest, and i don't find it, or them, gross.

but you seem to be saying that it's perfectly okay for someone to find me gross, and that it's a perfectly normal extention of their heterosexuality to deem gayness gross. and i'm saying that the "gross" distinction is socialized and conditioned, it's not intrinsic to heterosexuality.
I'm not talking about homophobes though. I'm talking about heterosexual people, whatever they feel about homosexuality, feeling something odd or uneasy about two men kissing. I wholeheartedly, strongly disagree that that's there just because of societal reasons. I think it's there because it's there. I really do.
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Old 03-24-2007, 12:42 AM   #79
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Originally posted by coemgen
I'm not talking about homophobes though. I'm talking about heterosexual people, whatever they feel about homosexuality, feeling something odd or uneasy about two men kissing. I wholeheartedly, strongly disagree that that's there just because of societal reasons. I think it's there because it's there. I really do.


then we'll have to agree to disagree.

why, then, do homosexuals not have a problem with heterosexuals kissing? i don't know of a single homosexual who feels uncomfortable with straight PDA.
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Old 03-24-2007, 12:50 AM   #80
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I don't know. That's an interesting question.

I'm going to go eat dinner now. (Yeah, I know. It's midnight and I'm eating freaking dinner. I worked late on a big story though.)

Irvine, have a great night and a great weekend. It's been good talking.
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Old 03-24-2007, 01:24 AM   #81
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Originally posted by coemgen
What verses are you refering to to justify that crap? I've honestly never heard of any . . . unless they come from the Book of Mormon.
http://forum.interference.com/showth...08#post3781008

Plus the "unequally yoked" thing--I forgot that one, and sean reminded me on the next page. You'll probably find most of these an interpretive stretch at best, and of course I'd agree, but I can assure you from direct personal experience that there indeed were and still are people who think this way.
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Old 03-24-2007, 01:40 AM   #82
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OK, I had heard the Babel crap. It's the same thing as the others -- taken out of context.

I honestly haven't run into anyone who thinks this. Thanks for sharing it.

Crazy.
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Old 03-24-2007, 07:44 AM   #83
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so does this apply to everyone? there is no privileged status for romantically involved heterosexuals?
A legal partnership agreement between romantically involved heterosexuals? Sounds pretty close to our definition of marriage. I'm just saying include the others too.
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Old 03-24-2007, 08:01 AM   #84
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I am straight, support gay marriage, adoption and same rights as hetrosexual couples. I have participated in gay rights movements at uni and would definately not vote for someone who advocated anti gay legislation and ideas...

BUT

I sometimes think gay people need to let go of worrying about what everyone else thinks. For the most part - the people who are most anti homosexuality are crazy fools anyway - why care what they think? Just be proud for who you are and not worry about what people say. EVERYONE is hated by someone else in this world and is still made the 'butt of jokes' by people - you gotta learn to know when to laugh and shrug it off and when to get offended and take further action. By getting upset of every slur, ever anti homosexual movement, is just spreading your anger and frustration rather then focussing on the major points.
Women are still hated by men in this world, plenty of places around the world see women as less then nothing, and even in 1st world countries there are still many people who look down on women, ridicule women for having 'power', try to exert their power over women (harassment, abuse, rape etc) and sure, there is a lot of stuff out there to deal with it, but a lot slides, just like a lot of gay stuff slides. I'm not talking about physcially abuse or anything serious, im talking about the undercurrent that is around. Move on, or stand up in the face of it and say 'fuck it, I'll d what I want, I don't CARE what you think'

I just sometimes think gay people need to realise, like most races, ethnics, disabled and fat people have realised, not everyone is going to like you, support you and want you around, and YOU have to be the bigger person and either push the issue or walk away. You have to accept that according to some stupid rule in society you are not "normal" and for some people regardless of society's changes for the better, you never will be normal and accepted. Aand those people are not worth your time.
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Old 03-24-2007, 11:13 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


when i was 13, i remembered seeing two men holding hands for the first time when i was visiting Germany. i thought it was weird and a little gross. there are times when i see two men holding hands in Logan Circle and i'm always taken a little aback. it's different, even to me, because it's not something i grew up seeing. it's not a socialized expectation.


I agree Irvine. I remember going into my first gay bar and seeing two men slow dance together. It was the oddest feeling, especially since I was in a gay bar. In the city I grew up in, I only remember seeing one "distinctive" gay person, the woman butcher, and feeling like I was the only other one in that city. THat is probably the reason my gaydar is so turned off. I wasn't raised seeing that as the norm.

Now living in Long Beach, it is the norm here, although we all blend in quite nicely.

I have to say I have read every page of this thread and love it when something I start turns into this.



Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy

BUT

I sometimes think gay people need to let go of worrying about what everyone else thinks. For the most part - the people who are most anti homosexuality are crazy fools anyway - why care what they think? Just be proud for who you are and not worry about what people say. EVERYONE is hated by someone else in this world and is still made the 'butt of jokes' by people - you gotta learn to know when to laugh and shrug it off and when to get offended and take further action. By getting upset of every slur, ever anti homosexual movement, is just spreading your anger and frustration rather then focussing on the major points.


I just sometimes think gay people need to realise, like most races, ethnics, disabled and fat people have realised, not everyone is going to like you, support you and want you around, and YOU have to be the bigger person and either push the issue or walk away. You have to accept that according to some stupid rule in society you are not "normal" and for some people regardless of society's changes for the better, you never will be normal and accepted. Aand those people are not worth your time.

For me I agree that we need to move on and not worry about what others think about us, but why tolerant hate in any form?
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Old 03-24-2007, 11:38 AM   #86
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Originally posted by coemgen


That's interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.



I'm not talking about homophobes though. I'm talking about heterosexual people, whatever they feel about homosexuality, feeling something odd or uneasy about two men kissing. I wholeheartedly, strongly disagree that that's there just because of societal reasons. I think it's there because it's there. I really do.

The first time I remember seeing two men holding hands, kissing, I was in college (a while back). I lived near Christopher Street (which was kind of a gay Mecca) in Greenwich Village, I don't remember any "eew" factor or uncomfortableness. I do remember curiosity. (And I'm sure gays are absolutely thrilled about being objects of curiosity ) But it was benign curiosity. I wasn't thinking of them as freaks, just as something I hadn't seen before. That was the reason I went to school in New York--to see things I hadn't seen before and to incorporate them.

Back home, sometimes I felt uncomfortable (not offended or squeamish) about seeing it--because it wasn't a part of open small-town norm--which seems to me indicate that it was how it was presented socially--at least for me, not speaking for anyone else. I moved in and out of friendships with gays, didn't see inherently much difference in how we were both attracted to guys, at least in the initial stages I was seeing (sometimes trying to catch the eye of the same guy -- neither of us did).

All that being said I'm uncomfortable with close-quartered, steamy PDA between both heterosexuals and homosexuals (Get a room!) But the combinations don't make much difference to me.

I was always more interested in the differences between people than the similarities. And there is abundant pleasure in seeing the differences and similarities between us intertwined.
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Old 03-24-2007, 11:48 AM   #87
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Move on, or stand up in the face of it and say 'fuck it, I'll d what I want, I don't CARE what you think'

That's the thing though, if what they want is a legal commitment and spousal rights, they can't have that, regardless of how much they say fuck it, I don't care about other people's opinions.
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Old 03-24-2007, 12:40 PM   #88
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A legal partnership agreement between romantically involved heterosexuals? Sounds pretty close to our definition of marriage. I'm just saying include the others too.


i'm not sure what you're advocating.

do you want two classes of partnerships? one marriage, the other civil unions? because we have that in NJ and CT and VT. or are you saying that anyone can declare themselves married if they live together as a pair as a cohabitational unit?
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