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Old 03-23-2007, 05:25 PM   #61
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No something does not "need to be done", relationships fail and will always fail and that is not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a fact. Society won't change because you want the top down use of force to make people try harder at their marriages, it can only change if enough people start thinking before acting and having more respect for others - so good luck on that, but don't be using coercion to make it happen.
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If a person gets in a car accident because they're drunk, a judge can order them to get help
And that is often through the religion that is Alcoholics Anonymous (which like so much religion doesn't do anything), a breach of dividing church and state.
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Old 03-23-2007, 05:28 PM   #62
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as for marriages, i think the 50% divorce rate can be attributed to two things:

1. people marry for love, not economic necessity,and love fades and is fleeting

2. way, way too many kids get preggers and have to get married way too young because of abstinence-only education

check out divorce rates between "red" states and "blue" states.
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Old 03-23-2007, 05:30 PM   #63
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Originally posted by coemgen

And the reason many men are thrilled at seeing two women together is because they're attracted to women!
Only hetero women acting out though right? Two lesbian women would still be a threat to the sanctity of marriage as it would not involve a man and a woman.

Men attracted to women who make the choice to commit a homosexual act would probably find this more acceptable than seeing two lesbians being compelled by their homosexual makeup to commit the act. They are unlikely to be invited to participate by the lesbians, so while they might champion the right to choice in the first case, it's unlikely they would champion the right, period in the second.

It's not about denying choice, like two straight women choosing to kiss, - it's about denying a right to confirm a commitment between two men or women who are compelled to be together.

I haven't explained this well so I'll leave now
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Old 03-23-2007, 05:51 PM   #64
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That poor 72year old.....she has the weight of the world on her.....and she should be kickin' back enjoying herself having a glass of chardy with her partner.

The world is made up of two races.

1. People
2. Impossible people - people who CANNOT be reasoned with.

It's the "Impossible People" who are the instigators.....and they are EVERYWHERE.......they have even infiltrated our governments and sad to say our insurance companies.
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Old 03-23-2007, 06:02 PM   #65
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Originally posted by Irvine511
what would you say if you heard someone say that a black man kissing a white woman was gross or disgusting? would that seem a hateful comment to you?
I used to just brand this as bigoted and hateful but I don't think it's that simple.

I know at least two people here at law school who are brilliant, very left-leaning and progressive and want to work in the public law sector. They are adamantly pro-gay rights, legalization of marriage, gay adoptions and so on. They believe it's a Constitutional issue, and are very articulate and strongminded.

But they are not comfortable with seeing two men or women physical with each other. One could not live with a lesbian roommate, she just found it bothered her to see the display of affection and she realizes this is her problem. But by no means did that make her any less of an activist. You sometimes have to take into account cultural upbringing and people coming from smaller, more sheltered communities and the kneejerk reaction may be "gross". Hopefully it passes, but I don't think it's as simple as somebody being hateful.
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Old 03-23-2007, 06:26 PM   #66
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Originally posted by Irvine511

no, i don't see the difference, and you're last sentence has proved my point: straight men are in fact often turned on by homosexualitiy between (usually hot) females.
It doesn't prove your point. Straight men aren't turned on by homosexuality between men, or even a man on his own. How can you compare the two?

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so it is not the presence of homosexuality that makes someone go "ewww," it's the idea of two bodies to which you are not attracted. it's physical, it's superficial, it goes no deeper than that -- just like, 50 years ago, the cosmetics of race would have been an important part of sexual attraction.
yes, it's two bodies that they're not attracted to – sexually. that's the key word.

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i'll also offer myself up as an example. i've grown up in a heteronormative world. it's normal for me to see physical expressions of affection between men and women. i feel neutral about it even though it is as alien to my sexual orientation as two men kissing are to yours. the difference is that i haven't had it beaten into my head that this is gross/disgusting/unnatural.
How do you know it's beaten into someone's head that two men kissing is gross? It's a natural reaction for heterosexual men to not be attracted to it. Here you're using the same logic you don't want anti-gay marriage people to use against you - that the way you feel isn't natural.

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now, where my orientation rears it's ugly head is when i start to think about specific sexual acts. to be blunt, i probably find the idea of performing oral sex on a woman as "gross" as you might find the idea of kissing (or more) with a man. and that's fine. but i've learned to be mature about it, not to scream "ewwww!" if/when i hear straight men talking about it, because it's like brussel sprouts -- some people just don't like them.
Well, and that's the point I'm making. Yeah, people don't have to be immature about it, but they shouldn't be called hateful because it makes them uncomfortable or they personally think it's gross. That's what I'm getting at.
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Old 03-23-2007, 06:27 PM   #67
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Originally posted by anitram
and she realizes this is her problem.
I think that's the bottom line. I would agree it's something to work on, but what matters most is recognizing that that emotional reaction comes from a place that isn't worthy of providing a basis for legal discrimination.
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Old 03-23-2007, 06:35 PM   #68
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I am straight and I love gays. They are HAWWWT
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Old 03-23-2007, 06:36 PM   #69
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I've completely separated the 'gay rights' from civil unions, and I wish that society would too. I'm all for any kind of household partnerships as long as it only involves 2 people (and even there, I'm a little leary, that it should be more). Bothers, sisters, cousins, lovers, children, etc... They should be afforded partner status with all entitled benefits.

Curious what you think of that Irvine...
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:12 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen

It doesn't prove your point. Straight men aren't turned on by homosexuality between men, or even a man on his own. How can you compare the two?


but don't you see? two women together is homosexuality, it is NOT heterosexuality. so it's not what you said earlier, a sexuality different than one's own that causes the "gross" reaction, it's the presence of two bodies that one is not attracted to.

and where does this leave staight women, some of whom do find the idea of two men together intriguing?



[q]How do you know it's beaten into someone's head that two men kissing is gross? It's a natural reaction for heterosexual men to not be attracted to it. Here you're using the same logic you don't want anti-gay marriage people to use against you - that the way you feel isn't natural.[/q]


are you kidding? it would be impossible to unpack the levels of culturally induced homophobia in a few short sentences, but let's just say that everything from "gay" as an insult to games like "smear the queer" to that Snickers commercial to the gay-baiting that goes on between Simon and the oh-so-straight Ryan Seacrest on AI all plays into the "gay is weird" narrative.

when i was 13, i remembered seeing two men holding hands for the first time when i was visiting Germany. i thought it was weird and a little gross. there are times when i see two men holding hands in Logan Circle and i'm always taken a little aback. it's different, even to me, because it's not something i grew up seeing. it's not a socialized expectation.


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Well, and that's the point I'm making. Yeah, people don't have to be immature about it, but they shouldn't be called hateful because it makes them uncomfortable or they personally think it's gross. That's what I'm getting at.
again, what i've been trying to say is that anyone can retain the "ew, gross" vibe, as well as the "gays are immoral" standpoint; what turns into active, harmful hate is when you use this to deny people basic rights. and this is why the interracial analogy works so well. many people think that black men kissing white women is upsetting. and they are free to feel that and to use the Bible to justify their anti-miscegenation feelings (as people have done for centuries). but they are not free to prevent black people from marrying white people.
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:14 PM   #71
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
I've completely separated the 'gay rights' from civil unions, and I wish that society would too. I'm all for any kind of household partnerships as long as it only involves 2 people (and even there, I'm a little leary, that it should be more). Bothers, sisters, cousins, lovers, children, etc... They should be afforded partner status with all entitled benefits.

Curious what you think of that Irvine...


i'd need you to explain this further, since i remember past threads where you've placed polygamy and incest in the same category of "personal choice" where you place homosexuality.
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:17 PM   #72
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Originally posted by anitram


I used to just brand this as bigoted and hateful but I don't think it's that simple.


i agree. see my earlier post.

what becomes hateful is not the "ew, gross" reaction, but the feeling that "ew, gross" can somehow logically translate into a moral position and a legal position that is then used to deny other people rights and basic respect.

and now, i have to leave this thread because Memphis isn't feeling well so we're beeing all weird and gross and gay as we eat Pho (which has magical healing properties, i swear) and watch "blood diamond."

we're not cuddling on the couch, though, and not because we wouldn't want anyone to feel uncomfortable, but because i don't want to get sick.
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:32 PM   #73
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:58 PM   #74
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i'd need you to explain this further, since i remember past threads where you've placed polygamy and incest in the same category of "personal choice" where you place homosexuality.
Nah, just a qualified partner, not necessarilly sexual, that simple. But yes, partner(s) is where it would get kind of gray. I guess, to keep it simple, we must limit it to one.

If the partners happen to be of the same sex, no big deal, lovers or not. Just as long as they agree to be 'partners' to some level of legal agreement.
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Old 03-23-2007, 11:15 PM   #75
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Nah, just a qualified partner, not necessarilly sexual, that simple. But yes, partner(s) is where it would get kind of gray. I guess, to keep it simple, we must limit it to one.

If the partners happen to be of the same sex, no big deal, lovers or not. Just as long as they agree to be 'partners' to some level of legal agreement.


so does this apply to everyone? there is no privileged status for romantically involved heterosexuals?
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