Why Do Straights Hate Gays? - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-23-2007, 03:00 PM   #46
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
It's not tougher to prevent, just make divorce illegal and perhaps require a 'character assessment' by a psychologist employed by the state before getting married. Problem solved.

Naturally the resistance to that would be more vigorous, but that's because you're dealing in consequences that directly affect the majority.
I don't think divorce should be illegal — like the Bible, I think it should be an option if abuse or infidelity is present, but I do think it should be much harder to divorce and that counseling should be mandatory before that decision is made. I think premarital counseling should be mandatory, too. We're coached on how to do a job interview and how to be a good employee, but when it comes to marriage and children, there's not much there before hand — unless it comes from a church or other religious source. Not everyone has this (and not all offer it).
__________________

__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 03:04 PM   #47
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


i don't understand this. can you explain further?
I've spoken with gays who say if a straight person sees two men kissing and says "That's disgusting" that they're being hateful because they're labeling it as something gross. Well, maybe to them it is. That's the natural reaction they have. It doesn't mean they're being hateful. Does that make sense? (I've also spoken with gays who could care less what people's personal reaction is)
__________________

__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 03:09 PM   #48
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


I've spoken with gays who say if a straight person sees two men kissing and says "That's disgusting" that they're being hateful because they're labeling it as something gross. Well, maybe to them it is. That's the natural reaction they have. It doesn't mean they're being hateful. Does that make sense? (I've also spoken with gays who could care less what people's personal reaction is)


what would you say if you heard someone say that a black man kissing a white woman was gross or disgusting? would that seem a hateful comment to you?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 03:52 PM   #49
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


what would you say if you heard someone say that a black man kissing a white woman was gross or disgusting? would that seem a hateful comment to you?
Maybe so, but honestly, and I think I can say this objectively, I don't think that's a fair comparison. You're still dealing with a guy and a girl. A person in your example would be saying the phrase out of cultural opinions. A person in my example is saying it out of sexual opinions, but it's even more than that. It goes against their own sexuality. Does that make sense? Again, it kind of seems like apples and oranges, although I see where you're coming from.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 03:54 PM   #50
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


I don't think divorce should be illegal — like the Bible, I think it should be an option if abuse or infidelity is present, but I do think it should be much harder to divorce and that counseling should be mandatory before that decision is made. I think premarital counseling should be mandatory, too. We're coached on how to do a job interview and how to be a good employee, but when it comes to marriage and children, there's not much there before hand — unless it comes from a church or other religious source. Not everyone has this (and not all offer it).
Oh christ no. Don't make divorce any harder than it already is. If a couple made a mistake getting married, don't make them keep making that mistake. I really don't think the majority of divorces are easy for the participants, and if a divorce is easy it just means the marriage wasn't good in the first place. And as far as children are concerned -- I think a good divorce is far preferable to a bad marriage for them.
__________________
indra is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 04:06 PM   #51
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Oh christ no. Don't make divorce any harder than it already is. If a couple made a mistake getting married, don't make them keep making that mistake. I really don't think the majority of divorces are easy for the participants, and if a divorce is easy it just means the marriage wasn't good in the first place. And as far as children are concerned -- I think a good divorce is far preferable to a bad marriage for them. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's a good point. Although, that's why I said premarital counseling should be part of the process, too. At the same time, I do think a divorce should be much easier than breaking up. Marriage is much, much more than dating. At least it should be seen as that, especially with children involved. And as far as children, yes a bad marriage may be worse than a divorce, but what's a bad marriage? If abuse is involved or infidelity, people should divorce if they want to. The marriage agreement, from both a secular and religious standpoint, has been broken. However, other things that make a marriage bad can be worked on and aren't as damaging, for the most part. Having said that, too, the real saints in all of this are those who are willing to work with their spouse who's cheated on them or is abusive and things get better. That takes courage, humility and love on a whole other level. (However, sometimes the courage, humility and love at that same level is seen through getting out of an abusive, completely disrespectful relationship.)
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 04:09 PM   #52
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 04:32 AM
It's none of your business and nor is it the governments to get involved in mandating other peoples relationships or arrangements.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 04:18 PM   #53
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It's none of your business and nor is it the governments to get involved in mandating other peoples relationships or arrangements.
I know, and look at the situation the U.S. is in. A freaking 50 percent divorce rate. There's all kinds of problems that creates. Besides, the government already mandates relationships and arrangements. You have to have a marriage license. At the very least a judge has to acknowledge the marriage. If a marriage splits, child support has to be paid. Etc.
To buy a hand gun, we have to take a test and there's a waiting period. To drive a car we have to pass a written and driving test. Why should there be something similar before a marriage?
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 04:25 PM   #54
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 04:32 AM
Should I have a test and waiting period before changing my will or signing a lease?

A handgun and a car are each items that when used improperly can harm other individuals within a society, this is not true of marriage which is a contract between two individuals, the sanctioning of which is done through the law of the land.

People make bad choices in relationships because it is driven by addiction, making it harder to get into or out of a marriage is not going to make those choices any less bad or for at least 50% of people regretting their choices.

A clear cut case of individual liberties versus morality policing, and if the role of marriage in society today is the socially beneficial institution that you alluded to then all government involvement should cease.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 04:41 PM   #55
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


Maybe so, but honestly, and I think I can say this objectively, I don't think that's a fair comparison. You're still dealing with a guy and a girl. A person in your example would be saying the phrase out of cultural opinions. A person in my example is saying it out of sexual opinions, but it's even more than that. It goes against their own sexuality. Does that make sense? Again, it kind of seems like apples and oranges, although I see where you're coming from.


i think if you went back 50 years, you'd find someone saying exactly the same thing about interracial love.

do you not think that revulsion at male/male or female/female love is cultural? why are so many straight men thrilled at the idea of homosexual "acts" between two women, but not two men? surely the revulsion isn't revulsion to homosexuality, then, but a revulsion about a body that doesn't appeal to them.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 04:42 PM   #56
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Quote:

A handgun and a car are each items that when used improperly can harm other individuals within a society, this is not true of marriage which is a contract between two individuals, the sanctioning of which is done through the law of the land.
Tell this to two of my best friends who's parents got divorced. It does hurt other individuals and it's more than simply a contract between two individuals. Maybe not on paper, but once a child enters the picture they're a part of the agreement, too. Maybe not a contract, but you know what I'm getting at. (actually, you do have the factor of child's support)

Quote:

People make bad choices in relationships because it is driven by addiction, making it harder to get into or out of a marriage is not going to make those choices any less bad or for at least 50% of people regretting their choices.
I very much disagree with this. Not all bad choices are made by addiction. Communication and money issues are at the root of most divorces. These are things that can easily improve with adequate counseling/guidance.

Quote:

A clear cut case of individual liberties versus morality policing, and if the role of marriage in society today is the socially beneficial institution that you alluded to then all government involvement should cease.
I understand, and agree with your point about it being liberties verses morals, but you lost me with the last part. What are you getting at? Maybe what I'm throwing out there isn't the best way to go about it, of course I'm just throwing it out there without having a lot of research to back me up. I admit it's mainly simply out of opinion and emotion, however, to just let things continue as they are without any changes is a worse thing to not give much thought to.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 04:52 PM   #57
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 04:32 AM
Quote:
Tell this to two of my best friends who's parents got divorced. It does hurt other individuals and it's more than simply a contract between two individuals. Maybe not on paper, but once a child enters the picture they're a part of the agreement, too. Maybe not a contract, but you know what I'm getting at. (actually, you do have the factor of child's support)
And would they be any less messed up if their parents stuck together because the government was using force to make them? And as far as child support goes that falls under the responsibilities that you accept when you make the mistake or choice to have a kid. Trying to make a moral society is a really bad bordering on evil way to wield government force, and love is an addiction; if people don't want to be with eachother when romantic love has burned out forcing them to remain together is not only damaging to them, it is damaging to the people around them - like black holes.

I wouldn't want the government forcing me to go through councelling and consideration if I ever wanted to get married and I don't want to be paying for that councelling for other people through taxes.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 05:01 PM   #58
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


i think if you went back 50 years, you'd find someone saying exactly the same thing about interracial love.

do you not think that revulsion at male/male or female/female love is cultural? why are so many straight men thrilled at the idea of homosexual "acts" between two women, but not two men? surely the revulsion isn't revulsion to homosexuality, then, but a revulsion about a body that doesn't appeal to them.
No, I don't think it's cultural at all. And I don't think you can't compare it to interracial love. The way someone relates sexually is completely different than the way someone relates racially. It's a whole different level of relating. If someone has an issue with an interracial couple kissing, it's not the act that gets to them, it's the race. Someone can spend time with people of another race and overcome that. In the case of two gay men kissing, it goes beyond what race they are. It's the act, because it goes against their own sexual orientation. In this case, yeah, someone could hang out with gay people and be comfortable around them, but may not change how they feel about men kissing men because you can't change how they relate sexually. Do you see the difference? It's more than skin color we're talking about. And the reason many men are thrilled at seeing two women together is because they're attracted to women!
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 05:14 PM   #59
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
And would they be any less messed up if their parents stuck together because the government was using force to make them? And as far as child support goes that falls under the responsibilities that you accept when you make the mistake or choice to have a kid. Trying to make a moral society is a really bad bordering on evil way to wield government force, and love is an addiction; if people don't want to be with eachother when romantic love has burned out forcing them to remain together is not only damaging to them, it is damaging to the people around them - like black holes.

I wouldn't want the government forcing me to go through councelling and consideration if I ever wanted to get married and I don't want to be paying for that councelling for other people through taxes.
Like I said, maybe making it lawfully mandatory isn't the best way. I see what you're saying. Something needs to be done though.

As far as my friends, yes, they'd be better off if their parents got counseling and worked it out. In fact, part of the reason the marriages split in both cases was the mother was alcoholic. If counseling were in place, this could've been addressed. If a person gets in a car accident because they're drunk, a judge can order them to get help. Why can't this happen in a marriage? As far as romantic love, what does that mean? How do we define that? Often times, it can be tied to something else that can be fixed in counseling. It doesn't always just fade out on its own. If a guy is addicted to porn and he stops having a sexual relationship with his wife, that can be fixed through counseling. It is all the time. If there's no counseling, he just goes on to another marriage and has the same addiction/problem.

Maybe part of the solution is just having someone explain to couples as their about to divorce the benefits of counseling and providing a list of reputable/certified counselors that deal with the issues they may be having, so at the very least, the option is put before them. Too often, it's not even considered because couples have no hope when in fact what they may be going through is terribly common and manageable.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 05:23 PM   #60
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


No, I don't think it's cultural at all. And I don't think you can't compare it to interracial love. The way someone relates sexually is completely different than the way someone relates racially. It's a whole different level of relating. If someone has an issue with an interracial couple kissing, it's not the act that gets to them, it's the race. Someone can spend time with people of another race and overcome that. In the case of two gay men kissing, it goes beyond what race they are. It's the act, because it goes against their own sexual orientation. In this case, yeah, someone could hang out with gay people and be comfortable around them, but may not change how they feel about men kissing men because you can't change how they relate sexually. Do you see the difference? It's more than skin color we're talking about. And the reason many men are thrilled at seeing two women together is because they're attracted to women!


no, i don't see the difference, and you're last sentence has proved my point: straight men are in fact often turned on by homosexualitiy between (usually hot) females.

so it is not the presence of homosexuality that makes someone go "ewww," it's the idea of two bodies to which you are not attracted. it's physical, it's superficial, it goes no deeper than that -- just like, 50 years ago, the cosmetics of race would have been an important part of sexual attraction.

i'll also offer myself up as an example. i've grown up in a heteronormative world. it's normal for me to see physical expressions of affection between men and women. i feel neutral about it even though it is as alien to my sexual orientation as two men kissing are to yours. the difference is that i haven't had it beaten into my head that this is gross/disgusting/unnatural.

now, where my orientation rears it's ugly head is when i start to think about specific sexual acts. to be blunt, i probably find the idea of performing oral sex on a woman as "gross" as you might find the idea of kissing (or more) with a man. and that's fine. but i've learned to be mature about it, not to scream "ewwww!" if/when i hear straight men talking about it, because it's like brussel sprouts -- some people just don't like them.

as stated in "trainspotting": "it's aw tae do wi' aesthetics and fuck all tae do wi' morality."
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com