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Old 07-05-2007, 06:31 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx
we lost that war not because we couldn't win it, but because our country didn't want too.
And now you are even stealing our stab-in-the-back legend!



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Old 07-05-2007, 07:36 PM   #32
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Originally posted by struckpx
i don't find him to be that bad of a president. of course, i am referring to his policies, not his outside activities, which i won't get into. he was the first major modern politician to embrace the idea of environmentalism. he began diplomatic talks w/ both the soviets and chinese.
I agree with all of this.


Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx
we lost that war not because we couldn't win it, but because our country didn't want too.
Unless I misunderstand you, this essentially is the argument that the US lost Vietnam because the public back home didn't have a sufficient appetite for death and destruction. Now, last time I checked, there was a fair degree of death and destruction inflicted on Vietnam, and there was a pretty high casualty rate amongst the US troops, so if you're going to go down the road of saying that the war should have been continued then you'd probably want to have some good reasons to back that up. You'd probably want to come up with some good explanations as to why you feel that there ought to have been many MORE thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions killed to justify the war on Communism, or whatever it was supposed to be.

We've heard this argument many times before here from a poster called STING2, and to be bluntly honest it's an argument that sickens me. If you're going to suggest that the US 'chickened out' by not 'finishing the job' in Vietnam, then fine, go ahead, but you can't then turn around and talk about Stalinist atrocities, because to be honest if you did you wouldn't really have a leg to stand on.

(And I emphasize I have a fair degree of respect for Nixon - people blame Nixon entirely for the Vietnam escapade, whereas Johnson and JFK get off the hook for some reason.)
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:01 PM   #33
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Having been coming of age during Watergate and having my first glimpse that my government should not necessarily be trusted or entrusted with too much power, I believed then as I do now that Nixon should have been impeached and removed from office for abuse.

That being said, I never discounted his intelligence. I think in some ways, he had a great vision. He had the talent to be a great president, although I don't know if he would have been one even without Watergate. Paranoia made him self-destruct. He was a complex man.
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Old 07-06-2007, 10:10 AM   #34
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He did, however, give us the hilarious movie Dick. Now that was a fun one.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:45 AM   #35
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

So then how does change come about, though chaos?
Through letting them know you aren't going to accept their bullshit and they'd better come up with something more honest.


Quote:
So taking a left turn and taking a right turn will get you in the same place? That sounds pretty ignorant.
In this case, yes. I don't vote, and I get nowhere. You do vote, and you still get nowhere. You're the 'ignornant' one if you believe anyone is going to change anything. The status quo keeps going and makes its living and firmly entrenches its power with the support of people like you.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:54 AM   #36
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Put 'All The Presidents Men' on your "to watch" list too
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:05 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnnRKeyintheUSA


Through letting them know you aren't going to accept their bullshit and they'd better come up with something more honest.
So you admit change does occur through "them".


Quote:
Originally posted by AnnRKeyintheUSA

In this case, yes. I don't vote, and I get nowhere. You do vote, and you still get nowhere. You're the 'ignornant' one if you believe anyone is going to change anything. The status quo keeps going and makes its living and firmly entrenches its power with the support of people like you.
Slavery was abolished, civil rights have changed, women's rights have changed, homosexual rights are slowly changing... Yeah you're right, status quo keeps going.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:41 PM   #38
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The tyranny of the majority shows how liberty can be sacrificed under a democracy.
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Old 07-06-2007, 02:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
Having been coming of age during Watergate and having my first glimpse that my government should not necessarily be trusted or entrusted with too much power, I believed then as I do now that Nixon should have been impeached and removed from office for abuse.

That being said, I never discounted his intelligence. I think in some ways, he had a great vision. He had the talent to be a great president, although I don't know if he would have been one even without Watergate. Paranoia made him self-destruct. He was a complex man.
Every President I think since Nixon has been deserving of impeachment b/c we hold such high standards.
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Old 07-06-2007, 02:52 PM   #40
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Originally posted by struckpx


Every President I think since Nixon has been deserving of impeachment b/c we hold such high standards.
No, they haven't.

Impeachment is a legal process and has nothing to do with standards. Certain criteria have to be met, so please elucidate for which offences Presidents Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II should have been impeached.
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Old 07-06-2007, 03:04 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Varitek
He did, however, give us the hilarious movie Dick. Now that was a fun one.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:31 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So you admit change does occur through "them".



Slavery was abolished, civil rights have changed, women's rights have changed, homosexual rights are slowly changing... Yeah you're right, status quo keeps going.
Most of those things were many years ago, and only came about when the cultural tide turned against them more than anything. The main thing that will NEVER change is the financial status quo of rich vs. poor, because even though there are rich blacks, women and gays, NOBODY cares about the poor person who can't donate, can't pay anybody off. The oil companies, banks, credit card companies, and big business and corporations will always get their way because they have money and the workers don't. Look, even the gains made in the 20th century by unions are now being made useless by outsourcing, downsizing, cuts in pay and benefits and other such things that are literally destroying the working class and middle class. If this continues, in a few decades we will be a country of the very rich and the very poor, and then revolution might come. And no, I do not believe the dems give a flying damn about the working poor, but they will tell you they will to get your vote. You need look no further than the wussout on the war in Iraq to know what we're dealing with, and I don't want them or trust them. We need someone NEW.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:42 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx


Every President I think since Nixon has been deserving of impeachment b/c we hold such high standards.
Where do you get this from?

Your schools have failed you, maybe college with undo some of this misinformation.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:46 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnnRKeyintheUSA


We need someone NEW.
Is some magical King or Queen going to take over all of a sudden?

If you don't vote, and you don't take part, we'll never get anyone NEW.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:47 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Where do you get this from?
Maybe his/her own mind? Thinking rationally? All politicans are crooked, or they wouldn't be where they are. You are naive to trust them. Of course most don't get caught, because they are rich and powerful but that doesn't mean they are innocent.
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