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Old 04-01-2002, 10:34 PM   #16
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Ah...I've heard this story too. I guess it goes with many of the other made up or legalistic "traditions" begun in the church (any church) that are completely unnecessary!


Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly:
*ahem* Lilly's tid-bit o'the day:

Fish was not always the chosen food for Lenten Fridays for Catholics. One of the Pope's brother's was in the fishing industry, which was in a severe slump at the time. So, all of a sudden it was required that Catholics eat fish on Fridays and the fishing industry survived.

Now you know.

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Old 04-01-2002, 10:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Sweetest, where do you get the idea that Judas was forgiven? The Bible doesn't say that.
When I said that our eternal destiny depends on our relationship with Jesus, what I'm saying is that if you accept Christ as Savior, you have forgiveness.
I think they mentioned it to us in Catholic School (Elementary and High School.) Adn maybe I've seen Jesus Christ Superstar too many times. I always thought he had been forgiven. If you take what Jesus said on the cross, maybe. But I thought there was something else. I have no Bible here, so I can't check.


So, if Judas/a murderer accepted Jesus at the last minute, he/she would go to heaven like nothing had ever happened?

If God knew that Judas was to betray Jesus, did he plan this? If so, then does God plan everything else/ Does he plan for car aciidents, disease? Does he plan that So-and-so will murder you-know-who?? If so, then why would so-and-so be punished? God knew...

(Sorry. DOn't think that I'm trying to pick a fight. These are questions I've always, ALWAYS had)

[This message has been edited by The_Sweetest_Thing (edited 04-01-2002).]
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Old 04-01-2002, 10:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

I don't believe in Purgatory, but I must agree with you if you don't believe the Calvinist viewpoint, either. I believe that God knows where people will spend eternity (simply because he knows the future), but he does not make that decision for them.
For hundreds of years (since John Wesley, if not earlier) theologians have used this doctrine to make Calvin's doctrine of "the elect" seem less offensive, and I don't buy it.

If God, observing our space-time universe that he keeps in a little jar, "foreknows" that Bob will die an unbeliever 50 years from now, then our universe is not open-ended. There really is no possibility that Bob will follow God instead of rejecting Him, and any of Bob's conceptions of free will with respect to this matter are an illusion.

So does God really "foreknow" the eternal destinies of every human soul? The apostle Paul seems to think so (cf. Romans 8:29-30).

But consider this: God didn't have to create man. He could have been perfectly content with a universe filled with animals and plants that don't rebel against Him, but he chose to create man anyway. Did God really "foreknow" that man would rebel against Him, plunge into sin and wreck his beautiful universe? If so, why did God make man into the first place? Genesis 6 says that God was grieved that he had made man on the Earth, which seems to me to indicate that before the fall, man did indeed have absolute free will--that God had intended for man to use his free will to live in harmony with Him and His creation, but man turned against Him.

Also consider this: the pages of the Bible are filled with the prayers of intercessors. These men and women prayed as if their prayers could make a difference in the world. Now if the entire fate of the universe is "foreknown" by God, then intercessory prayer is nothing more than a form of therapy, but I don't see it described that way in the Bible.

The Bible is full of prophecies, so there must be some room in the universe for "predestined" events, but I don't think it's so obvious that every single event in the universe up to and including the eternal destiny of every human soul is "foreknowable".

That's about all the metaphysics I can handle for now. Good night.
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Old 04-02-2002, 02:14 AM   #19
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If we needed to ponder all the tough questions in order to be saved, only intellectuals would get into heaven. When it's too confusing, try going back to basics, Sweetest_Thing; it may help?

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Old 04-02-2002, 02:47 AM   #20
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Isn't Purgatory mainly a Catholic thing? The reason I ask is that in Catholicism, the Bible is not seen as the sole source of revelation. Tradition, nature, and at least one other thing that I forget the name of are also accepted, although they are accorded a lesser degree of importance. Therefore, it's pointless to try and find a direct Biblical link to every single aspect of Catholic teaching. If you have a copy of the catechism of the Catholic Church, you can see where writings by Augustine and other important early christian thinkers are cited in relationship to teachings.
Some random traditional stories just seem to get passed on and on and on, and this Judas thing might be one of them. (One story I'm thinking of that I heard is the Peter being crucified upside down thing. This doesn't seem to have any biblical basis, either.)
I'm not judging anyone's practices as either right or wrong, so please don't flame me...also, if I'm at all wrong, or someone else is more articulate about this please correct me. It's been a while since I actually took any religion classes, and I, erm, haven't been practicing as much as I should lately.
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Old 04-02-2002, 03:39 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Sweetest_Thing:
DISCLAIMER: I realize this is all very literal. Indulge me
People betray others. They get to the gates. They spend a fair portion of eternity serving time in Purgatory, working off their sins.

People lie, cheat, steal. They go to Purgatory and are tortured until they can be let through the pearly gates.

I don't understand this. I never have.
Purgatory was "invented" by the Church hierarchy in the early centuries of Christianity in order to provide an alternative to the stark choice between heaven and hell. Therefore, whether or not Purgatory is "factual" is debatable.

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Old 04-02-2002, 04:44 AM   #22
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Just some random thoughts before hopping off to bed....hope they make sense

Isn't purgatory at odds with the whole concept of grace? You either can work your way to heaven, or you cannot. I don't think you can--that was the whole purpose of Jesus' death, right? So even if purgatory was real...how's it gonna do jack for anybody? If you don't believe in the whole grace deal, you don't have much to go on.

Although I was raised in a Catholic home, I'd never heard that the mention of Jesus' descent to hell was for the souls. I thought it was simply (ha) to conquer death...not necessarily to retrieve anything while there.

While Judas' final words could not possibly be recorded (who was there?) I think his death by his own hand clearly showed his remorse over the whole situation. Perhaps he did cry out to God for forgiveness. Perhaps, like so many of us, he failed to hear that "still, small voice" tell him it was alright, he could still be forgiven, and he went ahead with the suicide. Who knows?

Along the "pawn" lines...in the Old Testament, it mentions that God hardened Pharoah's heart....does God hold him responsible for that? I believe in free will, but there are definitely times when God does intervene...its all over the Bible. When He does stuff like that, does he hold us resonsible for His actions? Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?

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Old 04-02-2002, 09:52 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Sweetest_Thing:
So, if Judas/a murderer accepted Jesus at the last minute, he/she would go to heaven like nothing had ever happened?

If God knew that Judas was to betray Jesus, did he plan this? If so, then does God plan everything else/ Does he plan for car aciidents, disease? Does he plan that So-and-so will murder you-know-who?? If so, then why would so-and-so be punished? God knew...
I don't know what happened to Judas after he died, but I don't think he was "beyond salvation". As to your question about "death bed repentance", the theif on the cross next to Jesus was saved by his last-minute faith. I believe that could happen to anyone.

Regarding the second question about God's foreknowledge of evil acts, I would say there's a major difference between knowing something will happen and causing it to happen. God knew that Judas would betray Jesus, but I don't think he caused him to betray him. That was his choice.

Speedracer, I totally know what you're saying, and I have a number of friends who agree totally with you. I'm not so sure. I still tend to believe that God has complete knowledge of the future. But I don't think that limits our free will. I know that if I go home tonight and give my wife the choice between a bowl of tomato soup or a bowl of broccoli cheese soup, she will choose the tomato soup. She has the free choice, but I know, beyond any doubt, which she will choose. I believe that God knows everything he created that well. He knows what every person will choose/do in every situation, so he knows the future. But that doesn't mean he makes our choices for us.

But of course, I also believe that God is involved in the world, and doesn't just sit back and watch it all happen, so then you could say that just by influencing which choices we have, he is limiting our free will. For example, by offering my wife tomato or broccoli cheese soup, I'm preventing her from choosing chicken noodle. Hmmm...I guess don't have all the answers...I could have sworn I did....
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Old 04-02-2002, 10:11 AM   #24
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A few things:

Bbug
--Perhaps this story is one that have just passed down, but has no Biblical reference. Isn't that how most stories are? Just folklore passed through generations until tehy're documented?

BTW--I heard the Peter thing too.

Angell--You know, I never thought about your view. I mean, we're supposed to strive for perfection. To go to heaven. Not mediocricy. Not Purgatory. Doesn't this contradict God's plans for us?

AS well, Judas hung himself, right? My religion is a bit fuzzy.

Spiral
--I see what you're saying about God 'knowing' and not 'causing.' And about salvation. It's good to get questiosn answered...

Does God know everything that will happen? Or just the main things? Does he know that I'll die at 70 because of this....or does he know that I'll choose to skip dinner tonight in favour of studying.

SO we have free will. But if what Angell says is true--about the Pharoah--then God does interevene. How then, can he punish us for certain actions?


I ask too many questions.
Foray--what do you mean by 'Going back to basics?'
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Old 04-02-2002, 06:08 PM   #25
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Your all dancing around the issue here..thusly I must unsurface it!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by The_Sweetest_Thing:
[b]A few things:


AS well, Judas hung himself, right? My religion is a bit fuzzy.
'

the correct tense usage of the verb in that sense is hanged!!!!

that settles this debate as far as I'm concerned

[This message has been edited by Arun V (edited 04-02-2002).]
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Old 04-02-2002, 10:46 PM   #26
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have you ever also read any of "The Course in Miracles?" Certainly considered blasphemous by any who strictly follow any church's doctrine, but it offers a lot of insight, just like the "lost books of the Bible" do also. Far too lengthy to even give a synopsis of, but it is sold in most bookstores, and has been published at cost since it was transcribed, so it is not that expensive. Could not even begin to explain it, as it must be "experienced" as well, just as the Bible is the Holy Ghost, the Living Water. http://www.miraclecenter.org is devoted to "The Course in Miracles." Atonement, which is covered in the book, and of course the Holy book, is just one of the gifts God gave to people, the ability to "go and sin no more." Jesus said "my house has many mansions." And to the thieves on the cross with him he said "today you shall be with me in Paradise." Many books, including the Course, tell that there are many levels or areas of life after death, Paradise being one, Heaven another. Remember what he said when Lazarus was trying to give the rich man who was in pergatory some water, he had been the begger with Leprosy the rich man had walked over day after day, and there after death Lazarus wanted to help him while he was in hell burning, and he was told that it would not be possible because he could not reach through to that level from the level he was on.
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Old 04-03-2002, 04:38 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Sweetest_Thing:
[b]A few things:

Angell--You know, I never thought about your view. I mean, we're supposed to strive for perfection. To go to heaven. Not mediocricy. Not Purgatory. Doesn't this contradict God's plans for us?

Being created in God's image, we are supposed to strive to "live up" to it in a way, I suppose. We don't pursue perfection in order to gain heaven, we pursue God in order to gain heaven. Pursuit of perfection (God's image) brings us closer to Him, because in order to pursue it, we have to keep our eyes on Him, right? The eyes on the prize and all that sort of thing. Temptation can lead us not only to mediocrity, but downright badness (the whole sin deal)...part and parcel of "being human". But purgatory implies there is some way you can "earn" God's favor...wtf? Grace is where its at...He will catch us when we stumble....He will catch us when we fall....as long as we keep moving toward Him, even if all we can muster is a crawl. Our actions are what go against His plan, but they don't change the plan.....ya know?



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