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Old 10-05-2002, 04:14 AM   #1
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Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Help me understand,...... He chose to be a taliban warior and he did grow up in the free beautiful America. He is not insane ( by my standards ) and he got only 20 years.

...and then we have Arabic ( and other western ) taliban wariors sitting in a concentration camp in cuba. They do not know witch accusations they have to face. Whitout any help of advocates and far away from the international press.

why is there a difference in justice ???????
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Old 10-05-2002, 07:16 AM   #2
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20 yrs - I believe that was part of the deal for his guilty plea.
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Old 10-05-2002, 07:39 AM   #3
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Re: Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Quote:
Originally posted by Rono
...and then we have Arabic ( and other western ) taliban wariors sitting in a concentration camp in cuba.
Actually, the latest stat I could find is that there are 299 people there who are members of Al-Qaeda.

The implication that this is a concentration camp is very offensive.


Quote:
Originally posted by Rono
...They do not know witch accusations they have to face. Whitout any help of advocates and far away from the international press.
They don't know? These poor Al-qaeda supports do not know? Even under the Geneva convention, combatant POW's are allowed to be held for the "DURATION" of the war.

Please note, the Administration believes that the Geneva Code applies only to Armies of Foreign Governements. Al-Qaeda is not an army of a Foreign governement. However, this is irrelevant right now since we are still at war and the Geneva Convention rules would apply.


Quote:
Originally posted by Rono
...why is there a difference in justice ???????
The best explination that I can provide is that Walker is a United States Citizen and is therefore subject to prosecution under United States Laws.

As for a difference in justice, these poor Al-Qaeda Terrorists should be set free to continue to attack our country????

This is why the US Government is a new seeking standard from the International Community other than the Geneva Convention to handle the prisoners. When dealing with a foreign government, there can be a clear cut end and POW's are released.

How do you end a war with people who are not operating as members of a country?
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Old 10-05-2002, 04:23 PM   #4
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Re: Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Quote:
Originally posted by Rono
Help me understand,...... He chose to be a taliban warior and he did grow up in the free beautiful America. He is not insane ( by my standards ) and he got only 20 years.
I think that 20 years is still a mighty long time. IIRC, John Walker is 21 now, so he'll be in prison for around the same time as he's on earth at the moment. I also don't know all the ins and outs of his trial, but there isn't that much the USA can prosecute him for. He joined another (and enemy) army, fighting against the USA in that army. I think that's almost everything they can incriminate him for. Then I think that 20 years is a big punishment (although it is probably also a deserved punishment).

C ya!

Marty
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Old 10-05-2002, 04:52 PM   #5
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Re: Re: Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
They don't know? These poor Al-qaeda supports do not know? Even under the Geneva convention, combatant POW's are allowed to be held for the "DURATION" of the war.

Please note, the Administration believes that the Geneva Code applies only to Armies of Foreign Governements. Al-Qaeda is not an army of a Foreign governement. However, this is irrelevant right now since we are still at war and the Geneva Convention rules would apply.
But the problem is that the USA isn't adhering to the Geneva Convention. The US government maybe says that the Convention does not apply to Al-Qaeda, but the Convention is clear about it that they have to. You can find the Convention here (this is the official site).

Here's the start of the treaty:
Quote:
Article 1

The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

Article 2

In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.
I don't know if Afghanistan is a High Contracting Party (couldn't find that on quickly), but the USA is, so they should adhere to it. Whether or not they consider Al-Qaeda as a foreign army or not is not relevant. They are an armed party so the soldiers have rights as set out by the Geneva Convention.

Quote:

As for a difference in justice, these poor Al-Qaeda Terrorists should be set free to continue to attack our country????

This is why the US Government is a new seeking standard from the International Community other than the Geneva Convention to handle the prisoners. When dealing with a foreign government, there can be a clear cut end and POW's are released.

How do you end a war with people who are not operating as members of a country?
If the war still has not ended then they do not have to be released as they are still POW's. But even captured they have rights (no torturing, no interrogations, medical care, etc.) and the USA cannot take it from them just because they don't like it that they have been attacked now.

Marty
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Old 10-05-2002, 04:55 PM   #6
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you're living in a fantasy world, they can and have taken it from them, I guess it's not "fair," but you know what they say...
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Old 10-05-2002, 07:51 PM   #7
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Re: Re: Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


The best explination that I can provide is that Walker is a United States Citizen and is therefore subject to prosecution under United States Laws.
sad but true - not every human is worth equal and equal treated.
If you have the wrong color, no money or the wrong passport you're judged verry different.

Klaus
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Old 10-05-2002, 08:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus


sad but true - not every human is worth equal and equal treated.
If you have the wrong color, no money or the wrong passport you're judged verry different.

Klaus
I think the original comment about John Walker Lindh being an American citizen, therefore could only be tried under American laws was misunderstood. They tried to have him go to a military tribunal first. There, he could have received the death penalty or basically any punishment beneath that. However he could not be tried there (I can't remember why, but I really want to say because he's not a military man, but I'm really not sure).


What he DID get, was the exact same thing that the Al-Quaeda members will get: as many charges against them as possible. They will not have the advantage of high-buck lawyers like Mr. Lindh, but they WILL have lawyers. The original comment likening to how the US military is keeping the Taliban members (concentration camps) actually was rather offensive. They aren't in anything like a concentration camp. They have plenty of food and water, they aren't being whipped and killed.
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Old 10-05-2002, 10:39 PM   #9
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Re: Re: Re: Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus


sad but true - not every human is worth equal and equal treated.
If you have the wrong color, no money or the wrong passport you're judged verry different.

Klaus
Just ask those who received their justice in the soccer stadium in Kabul. Those held in Gitmo are getting far better treatment.
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Old 10-06-2002, 03:41 AM   #10
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Just ask those who received their justice in the soccer stadium in Kabul. Those held in Gitmo are getting far better treatment.
The nice thing is, Crusader, we are bragging around that our western christian moral is better than the moral of the people in rough states. We think that justice should be the same for all people, but all what we do is showing the ( third ) world that we are a bunch of hypocrites who are out for revenge and power.
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Old 10-06-2002, 04:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono


The nice thing is, Crusader, we are bragging around that our western christian moral is better than the moral of the people in rough states. We think that justice should be the same for all people, but all what we do is showing the ( third ) world that we are a bunch of hypocrites who are out for revenge and power.
Exactly.
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Old 10-06-2002, 08:37 AM   #12
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Quote:
Originally posted by Rono


What he DID get, was the exact same thing that the Al-Quaeda members will get: as many charges against them as possible. They will not have the advantage of high-buck lawyers like Mr. Lindh, but they WILL have lawyers.
So that's one of my points if you don't have the money (high quality lawyers) you won't be treated equal (see who gets death penalty in the US - as far as i remember the statistic 80% had bad assigned counsels)

When i think about Military tribunals with no publicity - third world dictators come to my mind - imho that "model" of Judgement dosn't suit for our free world.

I didn't repeat "concentration camps" for a good reason - also ai points out that the way they are treated is torture i wouldn't call it KZ (german for concentration camp)

If you take a look at some other changes in law resulting of the 9/11 you see that some of them are only valid for foreigners. That's discrimination for me - also discrimination of foreigners today is widely accepted it will still stay discrimination.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rono


The nice thing is, Crusader, we are bragging around that our western christian moral is better than the moral of the people in rough states. We think that justice should be the same for all people, but all what we do is showing the ( third ) world that we are a bunch of hypocrites who are out for revenge and power.
Right Rono,

I didn't bash the US judges only it was critics on all. For me there is no difference in this kind of racism wether the US, Europe or the Taliban discriminate some People (because of Race, Religion, Sex or the different Passport).
We can't tolerate the Taliban discrimination (for example) - just because it might be part of the culture. Culture imho stops where discrimination or any annulment of the human rights starts - Same for our countries, we can't defend our values by ignoring them.
it's discrimination and that is evil.

Klaus
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Old 10-06-2002, 09:36 AM   #13
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Quote:
Originally posted by Rono

The nice thing is, Crusader, we are bragging around that our western christian moral is better than the moral of the people in rough states. We think that justice should be the same for all people, but all what we do is showing the ( third ) world that we are a bunch of hypocrites who are out for revenge and power.

You miss the point. If they had evidence that he had renounced his citizenship he would not have gotten 20 years. Justice is not the same during a war. Unlike other wars, what nation do we have to sign a treaty with to end this one?

Please, enlighten me, what would you have them do with these poor prisoners????
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Old 10-06-2002, 10:05 AM   #14
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus


I didn't bash the US judges only it was critics on all. For me there is no difference in this kind of racism wether the US, Europe or the Taliban discriminate some People (because of Race, Religion, Sex or the different Passport).
We can't tolerate the Taliban discrimination (for example) - just because it might be part of the culture. Culture imho stops where discrimination or any annulment of the human rights starts - Same for our countries, we can't defend our values by ignoring them.
it's discrimination and that is evil.

I love it when we are called racist for trying to defend our country.

klaus you use the words racism, discrimination, and prejudice in your statement.

From the Webster Dictionary

Main Entry: rac∑ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
Date: 1936
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

(This definition does not fit this situation. Al-qaeda is not being held because they are inferior, they are being held because they are killing our citizens. The Taliban is guilty by protecting them instead of turning them over.)


2 : racial prejudice or discrimination


Here is the definition of racism that I believe you must be using. Let's take a look at the definition of prejudice to see if it fits.

Main Entry: [1]prej∑u∑dice


1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims

(Maybe this is where you think it is unfair to hold them. My point earlier is that during war we are allowed to hold prisoners until the end of the war. That is in the Geneva convention. As for how they are handled after the war, this is the point our administration is concerned with. We have no foreign governement to negotiate with.)

2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

Now this is where I would say we are not prejudiced against the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, their culture, religious beliefs or........

We have just grounds to take action.

Start with 9/11 and look backwards over 10 years. My country is not at War because we think our culture is superior. My country is at war becasue of Extremist nuts who have been killing us for years. This in and of it self, does not make our handling of the situation unjust or irrational.

We are not prejudiced nor are we racist. We are defending ourselves.



What is wrong with wanting protection?



Peace to all
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Old 10-06-2002, 12:06 PM   #15
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did Johny taliban walker only 20 years,...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

Now this is where I would say we are not prejudiced against the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, their culture, religious beliefs or........

We have just grounds to take action.
Okay here you get my definition (I didn't look in Websters, AHD or Britannica before my posting ,-)

Racism = unequal treatment of humans because of "uninfluenceable" things (i put "uninfluenceable" in quotation marks because i count sex, wealth or citizenship also to it because:
- sex: you can't expect from s.o. to change his gender just to be treated equal
- even if someone from the thrid world wants to become a rich american, in reality his chances are near to 0 even if whe would succeed with the same skills when he was born inside the US)

I'd be happy if you could find a better word for "uninfluenceable"

Maybe i should have called it simply "discrimination" not racism - because
rasism for many is just based on biological issues, racism was just ment to be an example for discrimination and unequal treatment (one example can be prejudice) based on anything non-important (like place of birth color of your skin or money on your bank account or citizenship)

I'm not against trials against those who might be murders of innocent (i wait calling them "murders" until they are proven guilty by a faire trial).

For me it's just important that everyone is treated and punished equal - just mesured by what he has done.

And when i see new laws (all over the world) after 9/11 which differ between foreigners and cizizens i have a problem with that.

Quote:
Start with 9/11 and look backwards over 10 years. My country is not at War because we think our culture is superior.
I never said something like that! I never even thought something like that - and i don't see any article or statement from myself which could justify anything like that.

Quote:
My country is at war becasue of
Extremist nuts who have been killing us for years. This in and of it self, does not make our handling of the situation unjust or irrational.
I didn't say that there should be done nothing! My only point is that - even in war - we have to care bout our principles and treat all human beings the same way.
Let us not be forced by any tyrans to change our view of what is right and what is wrong. If we do - they won.

Quote:
We are not prejudiced nor are we racist. We are defending ourselves.
What is wrong with wanting protection?
Peace to all
Nothing is wrong with wanting protection. Nothing is wrong with defense (btw. the difference between defense and offense is an interesting discussion also)

There's just something wrong when people are treated different because of their place of birth (again you have to judge them - but i see no reason for any difference in laws, court and prison)

I know it's illusoric that everyone gets the same chances in life and is treated equal - but it's a dream i can't stop dreaming

Klaus
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