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Old 06-16-2007, 05:20 PM   #121
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


The internet, a bar, a sidewalk, anywhere you'd like.

The reason there are restrictions in here and at school is to promote some form of order, to keep some kind of peace, BUT THEY ARE NOT GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED. They are rules created by private owners.
Yes, I realize that. As I said before, absolute free speech does not exist, and there are consequences for everything you say. You just may not get fined or thrown in prison for it is all. I agree that rules need to be in place (believe me, I'm not one of those types who would cry "free speech!" if I had just cussed out a cop and was being beaten over the head with a nightstick as a result).

I guess the system is the best we have. I just wish it would be better defined is all.
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:24 PM   #122
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(believe me, I'm not one of those types who would cry "free speech!" if I had just cussed out a cop and was being beaten over the head with a nightstick as a result).
Well how would they be justified? They have no right to beat you just because you said some strong words to them.


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Originally posted by LemonMelon

I guess the system is the best we have. I just wish it would be better defined is all.
And here is where I'm having a hard time understanding your argument, for you haven't shown one piece of government sanctioned free speech, just those on a private level. Free speech on a private level was never promised to you, why do feel you need a better definition?
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:26 PM   #123
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Originally posted by BonosSaint
I suspect that Wanderer was only referring to government sanctions against speech, not other consequences. However, I agree that there are enough other intimidating consequences that effectively weaken actual free speech.
I think that the government restrictions on speech are the only ones where as citizens we should be able to demand freedom, implicit restrictions are social - in some cases I think that resisting the social pressures is commendable (e.g. Mohammed cartoons) since at it's core free speech is dangerous to the status quo.
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:27 PM   #124
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


"You might have to"? Why, just because you a part of majority and you get to make the rules? You're kidding right?
No, I dont make the rules at all. The founders of this country of Judeo-Christian values made the rules. I would never move to a mostly Islamic nation and ask that all references of Allah be removed from public. Sometimes if you are in the minority, sorry, you dont get your way.

And yes, I can and do justify my opinions. If you want to make me think more, you saying you know everything about Jesus isnt a good strategy.
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:32 PM   #125
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An Islamic nation is the Windows XP of judeo-christian values, why would you have a problem with it?

The government doesn't have the right to bust into your church and force you to believe some slightly different theology that is the principle of secularism - in America it removes the government from religious affairs and puts them in the domain of individual rights whcih is probably a very good protection for you as a believer. God has no place in the US government if only because it is a club that collects it's dues from non-Christians.
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:34 PM   #126
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Originally posted by 2861U2


No, I dont make the rules at all. The founders of this country of Judeo-Christian values made the rules. I would never move to a mostly Islamic nation and ask that all references of Allah be removed from public. Sometimes if you are in the minority, sorry, you dont get your way.
Do these countries claim to have separation of church and state? This analogy doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Sometimes if you are in the minority, sorry, you dont get your way.
And this isn't what's being asked. What is being asked is that all men are created equal, not that a majority or a minority get their way.

Why do you feel you need God in your government or public square, and what scripture basis do you have that it should be?



Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

And yes, I can and do justify my opinions. If you want to make me think more, you saying you know everything about Jesus isnt a good strategy.
Sorry, just haven't seen a lot of it in here. I'm still waiting how the GOP is the "Christian party".
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:38 PM   #127
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Well how would they be justified? They have no right to beat you just because you said some strong words to them.
Does it even matter whether or not they have that right? The law is set by precedent and such things are quite common. It would make sense for me to expect that consequence (or to be fined, hundcuffed, etc).

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And here is where I'm having a hard time understanding your argument, for you haven't shown one piece of government sanctioned free speech, just those on a private level. Free speech on a private level was never promised to you, why do feel you need a better definition?
When did I once say I doubted the common definition of free speech? I only said that absolute free speech does not exist. That's it. That's what I was arguing over.

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Sorry, just haven't seen a lot of it in here. I'm still waiting how the GOP is the "Christian party".
I would like to point out that I agree with you here. Besides that fact that the party system in general is a complete flop, and they're all corrupt in some form or another, there are many times where the GOP agrees with things that are considerably less than Christian. They simply get that distinction in some circles because of their stances on abortion and homosexual rights, but that doesn't mean that many of their other actions aren't morally corrupt.
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:46 PM   #128
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Originally posted by LemonMelon


Does it even matter whether or not they have that right? The law is set by precedent and such things are quite common. It would make sense for me to expect that consequence (or to be fined, hundcuffed, etc).
Yeah it matters if they have the right? That's the only thing that matters. It doesn't make sense to expect that consequence, it's a stupid move, but not a legally expected consequence. And that's what we're talking about here, the legal grounds.


Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon

When did I once say I doubted the common definition of free speech? I only said that absolute free speech does not exist. That's it. That's what I was arguing over.
Quote:
I just wish it would be better defined is all
You are still confusing two things here, government vs private.


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Originally posted by LemonMelon

and homosexual rights, but that doesn't mean that many of their other actions aren't morally corrupt.
Actually their view on homosexual rights is one of their most morally corrupt stances.
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:54 PM   #129
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Why do you feel you need God in your government or public square, and what scripture basis do you have that it should be?
I dont want a lot. I dont want to walk down the sidewalk and see references to God on every store sign in town. That would take the mystery and the spontanaity out of faith. What I do want is God in the Pledge, and the Pledge spoken again in schools.

Romans 13 contains this: Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Deuteronomy 17 contains this: When you come to the land which the Lord your God gives you, and you possess it and dwell in it, and then say, "I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are round about me"; you may indeed set a king over you, him whom the Lord your God will choose.... When he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, from that which is in charge of the Levitical priests, and it shall be with him, and he shall read in it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, by keeping all the words of this law and these statutes, and doing them; that his heart may not be lifted up above his brethren, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left; so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.

Government was created out of respect for God and His divine law. Moses received the 10 Commandments before the Hebrews formed their own state. Therefore, the Commandments had precedent and stood above the state. Keep in mind the ideals found in our Constitution come from a higher law.

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I'm still waiting how the GOP is the "Christian party".
I never said the GOP was God's party. As much as I may love the Republicans and despise the Democrats, I dont believe God would endorse a political party and I dont believe one party loves God more than the other. Shame on whoever said that.
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Old 06-16-2007, 06:01 PM   #130
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Originally posted by 2861U2
Government was created out of respect for God and His divine law. Moses received the 10 Commandments before the Hebrews formed their own state. Therefore, the Commandments has precedent and stood above the state. Keep in mind the ideals found in our Constitution come from a higher law.
The problem with this is that it takes away all of our "moral authority" to encourage repressive Islamic nations to liberalize and accept minority religions and belief systems.

Many reformist movements in these nations no longer believe that the U.S. truly believe in secularism, but, instead, just want to "Christianize" these nations, and, as such, we are perceived as self-serving hypocrites. This certainly does not help the larger "War on Terror."

The U.S. is not a Christian nation, and religion should have no central place in our government. The ideals of our Constitution certainly did come from a larger authority, but that "authority" came from the Enlightenment, not any religious movement.
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Old 06-16-2007, 06:02 PM   #131
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What I do want is God in the Pledge, and the Pledge spoken again in schools.
But why? Just because you want it, that's not good enough for me.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

Romans 13 contains this: Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
So Saddam was put their by God, we shouldn't have removed him. See how that logic fails?

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

Deuteronomy 17 contains this: When you come to the land which the Lord your God gives you, and you possess it and dwell in it, and then say, "I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are round about me"; you may indeed set a king over you, him whom the Lord your God will choose.... When he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, from that which is in charge of the Levitical priests, and it shall be with him, and he shall read in it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, by keeping all the words of this law and these statutes, and doing them; that his heart may not be lifted up above his brethren, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left; so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.
Fails for the same reason.


Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

Government was created out of respect for God and His divine law. Moses received the 10 Commandments before the Hebrews formed their own state. Therefore, the Commandments has precedent and stood above the state. Keep in mind the ideals found in our Constitution come from a higher law.
Really, the Constitution was given to us by God? Wow now you are stretching. You really think God wants to claim some of the laws we have? God gave us the right to own slaves?


Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

I never said the GOP was God's party. As much as I may love the Republicans and despise the Democrats, I dont believe God would endorse a political party and I dont believe one party loves God more than the other. Shame on whoever said that.
Here we agree, to a certain point.

Although you did say this when asked if the Republican party equals the teachings of Jesus:

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Yes, I believe I do. If nothing else, I certainly, certainly do not equate them to the Democratic party of today.
So shame on who?
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Old 06-16-2007, 06:07 PM   #132
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I beg to bloody well differ, the concept of God is primitivism at it's finest (and in many ways that great security camera in the sky may be analagous to government) but the concept has no place in the machinations of any state that recieves tax money from individuals who do not hold to that particular delusion. As an atheist I find the idea that I must subsidise the Christianists mental masturbation of having every child pay lip service to their God quite obscene. While your faith may hold that government is a product of God (as many other theocrats would agree) that belief has no place in a liberal democracy especially that crafted from enlightenment ideals by naturalistic deistsl.

Do you have a problem with a system of governance where every citizen isn't paying lip service to the jackbook of your invisible friend?

Quote:
Keep in mind the ideals found in our Constitution come from a higher law.
Freedom and individualism are not bound to God, they have very practical and rational advantages for a society and emerged in the west in response to the shackles of theocracy. Freedom enables you to choose to live under biblical law as much as it enables me to live a wicked life of sin and blasphemy (that doesn't effect you).
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Old 06-16-2007, 06:10 PM   #133
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of your invisible friend?
All my friends are invisible, anything wrong with that?





















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Old 06-16-2007, 06:11 PM   #134
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As long as I don't have to pay their way.
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Old 06-16-2007, 09:23 PM   #135
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Originally posted by 2861U2


I dont want a lot. I dont want to walk down the sidewalk and see references to God on every store sign in town. That would take the mystery and the spontanaity out of faith. What I do want is God in the Pledge, and the Pledge spoken again in schools.

Romans 13 contains this: Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Deuteronomy 17 contains this: When you come to the land which the Lord your God gives you, and you possess it and dwell in it, and then say, "I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are round about me"; you may indeed set a king over you, him whom the Lord your God will choose.... When he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, from that which is in charge of the Levitical priests, and it shall be with him, and he shall read in it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, by keeping all the words of this law and these statutes, and doing them; that his heart may not be lifted up above his brethren, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left; so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.

You do know "under God" was added to the pledge just over 50 years ago right?

You also know that when Paul spoke in Romans of the leaders being put in place by God he was referring to the rulers of pagan Rome right? Hardly Judeo-Christian values there. . .

And you also know that the OT texts refer to the establishment of a theocracy, a nation ruled directly by God (God was not a big fan of the Israel having a ruler at all. . .He gave the people of Israel a king because they insisted on it).

Also, the Bill of Rights was written, in large part to protect the minority in this country. Free speech was written in to protect those expressing unpopular views. . .the rights of the acccused included to protect those who are suspected of committing a crime (usually not a large or popular group), and so on. Acknowledging and protecting the rights of the minority is what makes our nation a legitimate democracy.

Furthermore, Jesus made a habit of ministering to, standing up for, and defending those who were downtrodden. He seemed to be partial to the poor, to those that the rest of society didn't care for? Granted he wasn't advocating government as the "nanny" to care for these people, but neither did he take careless and flippant attitude towards the so-called minority.
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