Why are you what you are, politically? - Page 7 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-16-2007, 12:19 PM   #91
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LPU2
I believe America is the greatest country on earth. The reason it's great is its Freedom, Constitution and Bill of Rights. It sells itself.
We have all those things in Canada.

I get loving your country. When I was little, I lived in a Communist country and we all believed that America was the greatest country on earth. Now, having lived in many countries, I no longer believe that to be objectively true.

But I really wonder when some Americans say that they are the most free people on Earth....whether they are so far removed from reality that they have no idea what life in the rest of the Western world is like. I mean, we're not serfs outside of the US borders.
__________________

__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 06-16-2007, 12:26 PM   #92
The Male
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 65,813
Local Time: 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
As far as the pledge alligiance, that would fall under worship of false idols in Biblical terms...so who are you going to follow?
You fail.

Quote:
Allegiance

n.

Loyalty or the obligation of loyalty, as to a nation, sovereign, or cause.
I am loyal to my father, but I do not worship him. I am loyal to my country, so I will not give up secrets to our foreign oppressors.

And yes, this is still the best country on earth, if only for the lower taxes and cheaper gasoline.
__________________

__________________
LemonMelon is online now  
Old 06-16-2007, 12:44 PM   #93
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 10:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I get loving your country. When I was little, I lived in a Communist country and we all believed that America was the greatest country on earth. Now, having lived in many countries, I no longer believe that to be objectively true.

But I really wonder when some Americans say that they are the most free people on Earth....whether they are so far removed from reality that they have no idea what life in the rest of the Western world is like. I mean, we're not serfs outside of the US borders.
The U.S. is the "greatest country on Earth," as long as you're a highly-educated upper middle class white Christian heterosexual male with full health insurance coverage. If you're an American without one or more of those traits, you're at an automatic disadvantage.
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 06-16-2007, 01:14 PM   #94
The Male
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 65,813
Local Time: 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus


The U.S. is the "greatest country on Earth," as long as you're a highly-educated upper middle class white Christian heterosexual male with full health insurance coverage.
I have five of those traits (still working on education).

If you don't have any of those, you could always hitch a ride to Mexico, come back a month later (if you survive) without a visa, and you'll get someone else's job/welfare in a matter of weeks. Pretty killer. I can't think of too many countries whose border control sucks that badly.
__________________
LemonMelon is online now  
Old 06-16-2007, 02:20 PM   #95
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


That's not true. The definition of "allegiance" is a promise of loyalty to the state. It has nothing to do with religion. So it does not mean "I'm going to follow my country more than I'm going to follow God" like you might think it does.
Money has nothing to do with religion, but people can worship it, no?

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

I also agree with LemonMelon, that it does not say "Jesus" or the "Christian God" in the Pledge. It simply says "God" and children of non-Christian religions shouldnt be offended, in my opinion.
Oh but those that don't believe in God don't count eh? Wow, the arrogance of conservative Christianity strikes again...

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


Regardless of whether or not you really think they are a free-speech organization, you would be misguided if you thought they werent trying to push an agenda.
And what agenda would that be? I mean since we now have established they've supported the rights of organizations of both sides, what agenda are they pushing...the agenda of free speech?
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-16-2007, 02:23 PM   #96
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon


I am loyal to my country, so I will not give up secrets to our foreign oppressors.

But it also means the rights of citizens of your country are given more precident of innocent lives of other countries. I'm sure Jesus would love that...
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-16-2007, 03:19 PM   #97
The Male
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 65,813
Local Time: 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
But it also means the rights of citizens of your country are given more precident of innocent lives of other countries. I'm sure Jesus would love that...
Can't help both, and my family/loved ones live here. They receive precedent.

BTW, I love how you assume that the lives of American citizens are somehow less innocent than the lives of the citizens of other countries. That's one of the worst cases of unsubstantiated America bashing I've seen on this forum.
__________________
LemonMelon is online now  
Old 06-16-2007, 03:36 PM   #98
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


We have all those things in Canada.

I get loving your country. When I was little, I lived in a Communist country and we all believed that America was the greatest country on earth. Now, having lived in many countries, I no longer believe that to be objectively true.

But I really wonder when some Americans say that they are the most free people on Earth....whether they are so far removed from reality that they have no idea what life in the rest of the Western world is like. I mean, we're not serfs outside of the US borders.
They have more freedom of speech than Australia and a pretty clear cut set of rules on the secular state.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-16-2007, 04:14 PM   #99
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 10:48 PM
^What are the differences regarding freedom of speech?
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 06-16-2007, 04:16 PM   #100
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
They have more freedom of speech than Australia and a pretty clear cut set of rules on the secular state.
And a shittier healthcare system, lower standard of living, unaffordable higher education, a population with considerably more health problems and a president who treats the constutition as his own toilet to shit all over. So you always find a balance.

If you are super wealthy, the US is probably the best place to live in the world. But that only speaks to the 1% of the population. The other 99% are arguably better off in a number of other Western democracies.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 06-16-2007, 04:17 PM   #101
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:48 PM
Here the government can charge people with sedition, ban books (such as jihadi literature), ban films and video games (e.g. Bois Moi, GTA, Postal) and there are these stupid state hate speech laws that protect religious belief. America has a protection for such things under the first amendment. Plus the state subsidises religious education institutions and in primary school we actually had christian religious education classes (at a state school) - not right.

Being a white educated heterosexual male I think that seperation of church and state and free speech are good things, of course Somalia has freedom if you can affor the militiamen (no state and violent anarchy and tribalism is the cost).

In fairness though I do understand why people find social democracy to be a good thing. I mean basic research in the USA has been progressively stripped away and the country is lagging, entertainment is geared towards the lowest common denominator so most good network TV shows get cancelled (although HBO still gives some decent ones) - healthcare and welfare are important issues and a minimum safety net is a good thing - but a completely socialised healthcare system can have negative concequences (perhaps not as bad as a purely laizzes faire people dying in the streets consequence but there nonetheless).

A civil society demands some government support for those without anything. This has a cost in liberties (e.g. higher taxation, banning recreational drug use and loosing the ability to do stupid things). Political dialogue demands extremes at both ends so that the middle with still exist and to that end one can argue passionately in one direction because there are those doing so in the opposite direction and for all intensive purposes it is pure rhetoric. A civil society that will be afforded as much freedom as possible without pissing too many people off is the best one can hope for and seeing where people with contrary ideas are coming from is wise even if you don't agree with them.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-16-2007, 04:31 PM   #102
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 10:48 PM
I agree we have protections for such things. However, the real world doesn't always match the ideal here. Constitutional protections are one thing. We are protected from government censorship (kinda, sorta, eventually--when the courts finally step in and free speech usually wins). So we don't go to jail for it (usually). However, there is governmental leverage. For all the protections, though, we are really only as good as the justices interpreting it. So far, we've been lucky. I'm not sure it is a given we will continue to be.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 06-16-2007, 04:40 PM   #103
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon


BTW, I love how you assume that the lives of American citizens are somehow less innocent than the lives of the citizens of other countries. That's one of the worst cases of unsubstantiated America bashing I've seen on this forum.
I didn't assume such a thing . I live in America, hello! I was just giving you a scenario where that thinking becomes dangerous.

Try not to be such a victim...
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-16-2007, 04:40 PM   #104
The Male
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 65,813
Local Time: 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer

Being a white educated heterosexual male I think that seperation of church and state and free speech are good things(...)
Unfortunately, neither exist in real life.
__________________
LemonMelon is online now  
Old 06-16-2007, 04:42 PM   #105
The Male
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 65,813
Local Time: 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I didn't assume such a thing . I live in America, hello! I was just giving you a scenario where that thinking becomes dangerous.

Try not to be such a victim...
Use the word "hypothetical" next time. I answered your question and everything...I just thought you were being literal.
__________________

__________________
LemonMelon is online now  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com