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Old 06-16-2007, 12:33 AM   #76
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I support more or less all of the above, does that make me far left?
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Old 06-16-2007, 12:41 AM   #77
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I support more or less all of the above, does that make me far left?
You support NAMBLA?
You support the Westboro Baptist Church?
You support open borders?
You support taking God out of the Pledge, and/or not requiring the Pledge be said in public schools?

If you indeed do, then yes, I would put you in that category.

Bring on the "YOU'RE MAKING GENERALIZATIONS!" crowd....
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Old 06-16-2007, 12:46 AM   #78
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I support the right to free speech and free association, I support the principle of secularism namely the government neither promoting or persecuting religious belief and I believe that as individuals we have sovereignty over our own bodies and minds.

If you have no appreciation for liberty and individualism then how is your theocratic ideology any different from leftist collectivists? I mean that quite seriously, the totalitarianism of state being used to enforce the doctrines of God usually ends up crushing the individual just as much if not more than other forms of statism. One can be vigorously opposed to Islamic fascism and still be supportive of liberties (both social and economic); I simply don't see Big Religious Government (the so called "Christian Right") as anything other than socially authoritarian statists who by measure of how much they want to interfere with individuals lives are not really right wing and are in so many ways anti-American.
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Old 06-16-2007, 12:51 AM   #79
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I'm probably more towards the right, but the only things I'm really all that concerned about is abortion and border control. Gun control, homosexual rights and other such things don't really concern me either way.
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Old 06-16-2007, 01:00 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


You support NAMBLA?
You support the Westboro Baptist Church?
You support open borders?
You support taking God out of the Pledge, and/or not requiring the Pledge be said in public schools?

If you indeed do, then yes, I would put you in that category.

Bring on the "YOU'RE MAKING GENERALIZATIONS!" crowd....
You have one thing very, very wrong in your assessment of the ACLU. Supporting a group's right to free speech is not the same as supporting that group's message. Free speech is not free-unless-I-disagree-with-you speech.

And in regards to taking God out of the pledge of allegiance (read: returning it to its original form), what of the Hindu and Buddhist (not to mention atheist) children who are in school? Should they be forced to pledge allegiance to a nation under a divine being they don't believe in?
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Old 06-16-2007, 01:01 AM   #81
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Why should an atheists taxes go to an education system force children to acknowledge a supernatural (read impossible) entity?
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Old 06-16-2007, 01:12 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


And in regards to taking God out of the pledge of allegiance (read: returning it to its original form), what of the Hindu and Buddhist (not to mention atheist) children who are in school? Should they be forced to pledge allegiance to a nation under a divine being they don't believe in?
I pledge allegiance to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the Republic for which it stands
One nation, under God, indivisible
With liberty and justice for all

OK, answer me this. Though it says "under God" and not merely "under a God", where, in this context, does it reference the Christian God? We know better because we know what many of the founding father believed in, but can you honestly say to me that a child couldn't make up his own decision what "God" means to him in this context? It sounds pretty vague to me.
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Old 06-16-2007, 01:20 AM   #83
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There is no such thing as God the statement is endorsing nonsense, vague enough for theists but not for all.
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Old 06-16-2007, 03:37 AM   #84
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I believe America is the greatest country on earth. The reason it's great is its Freedom, Constitution and Bill of Rights. It sells itself. By requiring our children to pledge allegiance to it, we're essentially forcing our children to be patriotic, as if we didn't really believe its greatness could be made clear without it.

Forcing people to swear devotion doesn't sound like America to me.

Should "God" be in it? As a devout Christian, it doesn't bother me, sounds generic enough, but if we really believe in what America stands for, we probably shouldn't have it in there. Doesn't bother me nearly as much as putting the 10 Commandments in court rooms though.
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Old 06-16-2007, 04:03 AM   #85
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Originally posted by 2861U2


reasons include, but are not limited to:

1) Taking God out of the Pledge of Allegiance
2) Removal of God from the public schools
3) Supporting partial-birth abortion
4) Supporting same-sex marriage
5) Supporting unlimited immigration and open borders
6) Defending terrorists held at Gitmo, not wanting the US to treat them as the enemy combatants that they are
7) Supporting the Phelps-Roper maniacs and the Westboro Baptists Church
8) Support of NAMBLA and refusal to fight pedophilia
9) Support of the decriminalization of narcotics

The ACLU used to be an admirable organization. However, they are no longer a free speech organization but are a far-left group only striving to push their own agenda.
This sounds like an O'Reilly talking points memo! :-)

I've always admired the ACLU. When Rush Limbaugh's privacy rights were being trampled on, who took his case? The ACLU. When the Nazis couldn't march in Skokie because it was a community of Jews, who took their case? A Jewish lawyer from the ACLU.

Speech that isn't offensive doesn't need protecting.

Couple more things on your list. Putting God in government is what Islamic extremists want to do. And Gitmo is working AGAINST the war on terror. I agree with Colin Powell that we ought to shut it down. We're in a massive battle trying to keep 2 billion Muslims from turning into extremists who hate America. Gitmo, because of the abuses, is doing exactly that.
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Old 06-16-2007, 04:04 AM   #86
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Ooops. Error.
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Old 06-16-2007, 04:38 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


The ACLU used to be an admirable organization. However, they are no longer a free speech organization but are a far-left group only striving to push their own agenda.
Not all of those are far left organizations, some of those are on your side, and they have supported your side quite a bit, so you may want to do some research.

The ACLU may support a lot of groups that you don't support, they may help a lot of groups I don't support, but it's free speech.

Something you said you support.
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Old 06-16-2007, 04:42 AM   #88
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As far as the pledge alligiance, that would fall under worship of false idols in Biblical terms...so who are you going to follow?
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:10 AM   #89
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Do Conservative Americans view Europe as some sort of degenerate, amoral cesspit, idol worshippers, all marxists and what not?

I mean, we seem to have an awful lot of what they hate.

What issue would Jesus have with immigration? I don't recall him ever setting out a policy on that issue, not even sure if there was such a thing as immigration control in those days, I don't think he mentioned anything on narcotics either, homosexuality, abortion...I really don't think he would care much about the pledge of allegiance either...the only political gesture I recall Jesus making was "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's......."

Reading here sometimes would make you think America is the Holy Land or something, the only people God truly loves
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Old 06-16-2007, 09:31 AM   #90
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
As far as the pledge alligiance, that would fall under worship of false idols in Biblical terms...so who are you going to follow?
That's not true. The definition of "allegiance" is a promise of loyalty to the state. It has nothing to do with religion. So it does not mean "I'm going to follow my country more than I'm going to follow God" like you might think it does.

I also agree with LemonMelon, that it does not say "Jesus" or the "Christian God" in the Pledge. It simply says "God" and children of non-Christian religions shouldnt be offended, in my opinion.

A_Wanderer made a interesting point. If I read him right, he basically said we are all individuals and we should be able to do whatever we want without any interference. I get what he's saying, and I kind of agree. However, there has to be limits. Once your actions start to harm other people and endanger the well-being of the country (things like NAMBLA, open borders, decriminalizing drugs) it crosses the line. I suppose I can understand supporting the WBC or even Gitmo, but it is very irresponsible for the ACLU to support NAMBLA and open borders, which put others at risk.

Regardless of whether or not you really think they are a free-speech organization, you would be misguided if you thought they werent trying to push an agenda.
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