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Old 06-15-2007, 12:06 PM   #61
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I'm a Democrat and I'm a Christian-and I think I'm a pretty good Christian too. I try, I fail cause I'm merely human-but I am able to coexist in both worlds quite well. I have good values and morals.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:14 PM   #62
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Like you, I was raised in a conservative Christian home and I remain, I suppose what would be called a conservative Christian. In fact I'm a missionary so you could definitely say my faith is very important to me.

I just wanted to point out that being a conservative Christian does not necessarily inexorably lead to Republican party orthodoxy.

I'd like to challenge a couple of points you've made and I'd appreciate your responses:

Where's the Biblical support for believers pushing for God to be part of the public sphere? (Remember Jesus lived in a time when God's people were being dominated by an outside pagan power--the Romans--and there were many people eager to put God back into the government. Where did Jesus stand on those issues?)

While on the surface you might make a Biblical argument for "working hard to get ahead and not taking handouts" ususally that kind of statement is code for being against increased social programs from the government. In other words, it's fine for churches to do charitable work but not the government. Where's the Biblical justification for "smaller government" in this sense?

What is the Biblical justification for U.S. foreign policy and defending itself? (I'm not saying it shouldn't, I'm just asking is there a Biblical justification?)

What's the Biblical argument that the environment is unimportant?

What I'm hoping you'll consider is that perhaps your views are more rooted in your culture, what your ministers and sources of news tell you etc rather than the actual teachings of Scripture. After all many of the political views have nothing to do with Christinaity. It's not that a Christian SHOULDN'T hold any of your views, but it would be a mistake to conclude that your being a conservative Christian automatically leads you to the particular political views you hold.

I understand you feel like your way of life is under attack by a secular-humanist worldview but think about the early church. Their way of life really was under attack! All but one of Jesus disciples gave their LIFE for their faith! How did they respond to the assault on Christianity? What should that tell us about how we should respond?
Excellent post.

I really think this brand of conservative Christianity GOP thing, is an American thing created by WASPs. I can't think of another region where Christianity is used and abused in this way.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:21 PM   #63
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Originally posted by maycocksean


LikI understand you feel like your way of life is under attack by a secular-humanist worldview but think about the early church


ah, but see, the secular humanists embrace secularism, which enables the free, unhindered expression of religious freedom, right up until the point that it infringes on anyone else's rights. the government stays out of religion, religion stays out of government, thusly enabling both to flourish.

you want to truly put religious freedom under attack? it's the preference by the government of one religion over another. it's not people smoking pot in Seattle who say "Happy Holidays" and don't go to church.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:30 PM   #64
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ah, but see, the secular humanists embrace secularism, which enables the free, unhindered expression of religious freedom, right up until the point that it infringes on anyone else's rights. the government stays out of religion, religion stays out of government, thusly enabling both to flourish.

you want to truly put religious freedom under attack? it's the preference by the government of one religion over another. it's not people smoking pot in Seattle who say "Happy Holidays" and don't go to church.
Oh, I agree with you. I've always appreciated how you've summed the argument for secular government. I'm just trying to help 2861U2 get a little perspective. . .my point being even IF your way of life is "under attack" there's no Biblical support for "getting God into the public sphere.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:42 PM   #65
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Oh, I agree with you. I've always appreciated how you've summed the argument for secular government. I'm just trying to help 2861U2 get a little perspective. . .my point being even IF your way of life is "under attack" there's no Biblical support for "getting God into the public sphere.


sorry, that might have been phrased wrong -- i know you agree with me. i was trying to buttress your point, not take issue with it.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:44 PM   #66
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sorry, that might have been phrased wrong -- i know you agree with me. i was trying to buttress your point, not take issue with it.
I figured as much
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Old 06-15-2007, 04:28 PM   #67
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Originally posted by anitram

It's about a scene involving maybe about 10 Americans who were expats, living in Paris. They were discussing differences between two countries. Like the fact that women get 6 months off when they have a baby and an option of another 6 months after that (pay notwithstanding). Like after giving birth, a woman can have a government employee come into her home twice a week for 4 hours to do her laundry, prepare meals, and watch the baby so the woman can have a break. Like the fact that daycare costs the French $1/hour per child. Like the fact that everyone, including part-time employees have 5 weeks of mandatory vacation a year. When you get married, you get an additional 7 days for your honeymoon. Like the fact that if you work past 35 hours a week, that entitles you for more vacation time. Like the fact that working people have unlimited sick days per year: if you are sick, you are sick.

They were saying, is this not family values? That we have more time with our children, that we are not stressed with debt, that the state supports child-rearing and supports mothers and fathers?
The U.S. could take a lesson from some of these provisions. They are very generous and great for families.

But there's a trade-off here as well. France has a relatively stagnant economy. Taxes are high to support the welfare state. The overall unemployment rate is about twice America's. And the unemployment rate for for young adults 25 and under? Between 15 and 20 percent depending on where you look. So there is a high cost that goes along with the many benefits, which are undeniable.

http:// www .insee.fr/en/home/home_page.asp
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Old 06-15-2007, 04:51 PM   #68
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it's interesting.

i know several Europeans who live and work in DC, and i knew several Americans who lived and worked in Europe (Belgium and Germany, to be specific).

and they all said the same thing.

if you want to work hard and get ahead and succeed and make money, go to the US.

if you want to live and raise a family, you are much, much better off in Europe.
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Old 06-15-2007, 04:54 PM   #69
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I just think the men and the accents over there are better


I do think you're onto something there though.
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Old 06-15-2007, 06:03 PM   #70
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European political economy is not my forte, but my understanding is that labor protection laws in France (which make it very hard to fire people and consequently especially risky to hire young people, etc.)--as well as a longstanding sluggishness in gearing the economy towards high-growth industries--are a much stronger contributor to their high unemployment rate than the cost of child welfare and health services, though the latter obviously do factor in indirectly through payroll taxes and so on. When I taught in southern France last summer (immediately in the wake of the strikes over de Villepin's proposed labor reforms), I also heard repeatedly from colleagues that there's a serious distribution-of-services problem where the people most in need of both employment and social welfare services (i.e. immigrants) are by far the least likely to wind up getting much of either. Unfortunately, I don't myself know enough about the workings of their social services to comment meaningfully on that. It's also my understanding that those European countries which have had considerable success over the last decade in reducing unemployment by trimming back the welfare state (for example, Sweden) have in fact done so at minimal cost to basic services like childcare and healthcare, which are seen as being in the longterm best interests of the economy to support.

I don't really think there are too many working parents here in the US clamoring for guaranteed 5-week vacations or government-furnished nannies 8 hours a week to give mom or dad a break. Making daycare more affordable and maternity *and* paternity leave policies more generous--as well as college tuition more affordable for older children--are much higher priorities for most of us. The kinds of low-paying service jobs that constitute an increasingly larger share of the economy here simply don't pay enough to allow one parent to stay at home all the time, but then as soon as you add on that second paycheck, the resulting need for paid childcare turns right around and eats up most of it, so you can't save anything. And if you live in an economically depressed region with poor schools (which tend to go together), then so much the worse, for both your future and your children's. If I hadn't happened to have very highly educated, albeit poor, parents who quite literally provided us with the equivalent of 10-15 extra hours of schooling a week at home, I don't think I could ever have managed to work my way to the career I have today; much as they wouldn't have come by that level of education themselves if they hadn't had the immense network of private Jewish social services set up for Holocaust refugees to draw upon when they came here. Very few kids where I grew up were that lucky.

Fiscal efficiency is necessary, but so is supporting children's welfare...it's a cliched point to make, but we have no future without them.
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Old 06-15-2007, 06:27 PM   #71
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Originally posted by 2861U2
I think if Jesus saw the ACLU and other far-lefts doing what they are doing regarding God, He would be appalled and very dissapointed.
Can you explain why you think the ACLU are far left?
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Old 06-15-2007, 06:35 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it's interesting.

i know several Europeans who live and work in DC, and i knew several Americans who lived and worked in Europe (Belgium and Germany, to be specific).

and they all said the same thing.

if you want to work hard and get ahead and succeed and make money, go to the US.

if you want to live and raise a family, you are much, much better off in Europe.
Whoa, whoa. Careful now. You wouldn't be questioning the sanctity of the American Dream now would you?
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Old 06-15-2007, 07:05 PM   #73
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Can you explain why you think the ACLU are far left?
Rush told him so...
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Old 06-15-2007, 07:40 PM   #74
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Can you explain why you think the ACLU are far left?
Because they champion the same causes as the left at the expense of social conservatism, but that doesn't make them wrong.
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Old 06-16-2007, 12:32 AM   #75
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Can you explain why you think the ACLU are far left?
reasons include, but are not limited to:

1) Taking God out of the Pledge of Allegiance
2) Removal of God from the public schools
3) Supporting partial-birth abortion
4) Supporting same-sex marriage
5) Supporting unlimited immigration and open borders
6) Defending terrorists held at Gitmo, not wanting the US to treat them as the enemy combatants that they are
7) Supporting the Phelps-Roper maniacs and the Westboro Baptists Church
8) Support of NAMBLA and refusal to fight pedophilia
9) Support of the decriminalization of narcotics

The ACLU used to be an admirable organization. However, they are no longer a free speech organization but are a far-left group only striving to push their own agenda.
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