Why are you what you are, politically?

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LPU2 said:
I believe America is the greatest country on earth. The reason it's great is its Freedom, Constitution and Bill of Rights. It sells itself.

We have all those things in Canada.

I get loving your country. When I was little, I lived in a Communist country and we all believed that America was the greatest country on earth. Now, having lived in many countries, I no longer believe that to be objectively true.

But I really wonder when some Americans say that they are the most free people on Earth....whether they are so far removed from reality that they have no idea what life in the rest of the Western world is like. I mean, we're not serfs outside of the US borders.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
As far as the pledge alligiance, that would fall under worship of false idols in Biblical terms...so who are you going to follow?

You fail.

Allegiance

n.

Loyalty or the obligation of loyalty, as to a nation, sovereign, or cause.

I am loyal to my father, but I do not worship him. I am loyal to my country, so I will not give up secrets to our foreign oppressors. :wink:

And yes, this is still the best country on earth, if only for the lower taxes and cheaper gasoline. :drool:
 
anitram said:
I get loving your country. When I was little, I lived in a Communist country and we all believed that America was the greatest country on earth. Now, having lived in many countries, I no longer believe that to be objectively true.

But I really wonder when some Americans say that they are the most free people on Earth....whether they are so far removed from reality that they have no idea what life in the rest of the Western world is like. I mean, we're not serfs outside of the US borders.

The U.S. is the "greatest country on Earth," as long as you're a highly-educated upper middle class white Christian heterosexual male with full health insurance coverage. If you're an American without one or more of those traits, you're at an automatic disadvantage.
 
Ormus said:


The U.S. is the "greatest country on Earth," as long as you're a highly-educated upper middle class white Christian heterosexual male with full health insurance coverage.

:rockon: I have five of those traits (still working on education).

If you don't have any of those, you could always hitch a ride to Mexico, come back a month later (if you survive) without a visa, and you'll get someone else's job/welfare in a matter of weeks. Pretty killer. :happy: I can't think of too many countries whose border control sucks that badly.
 
2861U2 said:


That's not true. The definition of "allegiance" is a promise of loyalty to the state. It has nothing to do with religion. So it does not mean "I'm going to follow my country more than I'm going to follow God" like you might think it does.

Money has nothing to do with religion, but people can worship it, no?

2861U2 said:

I also agree with LemonMelon, that it does not say "Jesus" or the "Christian God" in the Pledge. It simply says "God" and children of non-Christian religions shouldnt be offended, in my opinion.

Oh but those that don't believe in God don't count eh? Wow, the arrogance of conservative Christianity strikes again...

2861U2 said:


Regardless of whether or not you really think they are a free-speech organization, you would be misguided if you thought they werent trying to push an agenda.

And what agenda would that be? I mean since we now have established they've supported the rights of organizations of both sides, what agenda are they pushing...the agenda of free speech? :ohmy:
 
LemonMelon said:


I am loyal to my country, so I will not give up secrets to our foreign oppressors. :wink:

But it also means the rights of citizens of your country are given more precident of innocent lives of other countries. I'm sure Jesus would love that...
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
But it also means the rights of citizens of your country are given more precident of innocent lives of other countries. I'm sure Jesus would love that...

Can't help both, and my family/loved ones live here. They receive precedent. :shrug:

BTW, I love how you assume that the lives of American citizens are somehow less innocent than the lives of the citizens of other countries. That's one of the worst cases of unsubstantiated America bashing I've seen on this forum.
 
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anitram said:


We have all those things in Canada.

I get loving your country. When I was little, I lived in a Communist country and we all believed that America was the greatest country on earth. Now, having lived in many countries, I no longer believe that to be objectively true.

But I really wonder when some Americans say that they are the most free people on Earth....whether they are so far removed from reality that they have no idea what life in the rest of the Western world is like. I mean, we're not serfs outside of the US borders.
They have more freedom of speech than Australia and a pretty clear cut set of rules on the secular state.
 
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A_Wanderer said:
They have more freedom of speech than Australia and a pretty clear cut set of rules on the secular state.

And a shittier healthcare system, lower standard of living, unaffordable higher education, a population with considerably more health problems and a president who treats the constutition as his own toilet to shit all over. So you always find a balance.

If you are super wealthy, the US is probably the best place to live in the world. But that only speaks to the 1% of the population. The other 99% are arguably better off in a number of other Western democracies.
 
Here the government can charge people with sedition, ban books (such as jihadi literature), ban films and video games (e.g. Bois Moi, GTA, Postal) and there are these stupid state hate speech laws that protect religious belief. America has a protection for such things under the first amendment. Plus the state subsidises religious education institutions and in primary school we actually had christian religious education classes (at a state school) - not right.

Being a white educated heterosexual male I think that seperation of church and state and free speech are good things, of course Somalia has freedom if you can affor the militiamen (no state and violent anarchy and tribalism is the cost).

In fairness though I do understand why people find social democracy to be a good thing. I mean basic research in the USA has been progressively stripped away and the country is lagging, entertainment is geared towards the lowest common denominator so most good network TV shows get cancelled (although HBO still gives some decent ones) - healthcare and welfare are important issues and a minimum safety net is a good thing - but a completely socialised healthcare system can have negative concequences (perhaps not as bad as a purely laizzes faire people dying in the streets consequence but there nonetheless).

A civil society demands some government support for those without anything. This has a cost in liberties (e.g. higher taxation, banning recreational drug use and loosing the ability to do stupid things). Political dialogue demands extremes at both ends so that the middle with still exist and to that end one can argue passionately in one direction because there are those doing so in the opposite direction and for all intensive purposes it is pure rhetoric. A civil society that will be afforded as much freedom as possible without pissing too many people off is the best one can hope for and seeing where people with contrary ideas are coming from is wise even if you don't agree with them.
 
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I agree we have protections for such things. However, the real world doesn't always match the ideal here. Constitutional protections are one thing. We are protected from government censorship (kinda, sorta, eventually--when the courts finally step in and free speech usually wins). So we don't go to jail for it (usually). However, there is governmental leverage. For all the protections, though, we are really only as good as the justices interpreting it. So far, we've been lucky. I'm not sure it is a given we will continue to be.
 
LemonMelon said:


BTW, I love how you assume that the lives of American citizens are somehow less innocent than the lives of the citizens of other countries. That's one of the worst cases of unsubstantiated America bashing I've seen on this forum.

I didn't assume such a thing :huh:. I live in America, hello! I was just giving you a scenario where that thinking becomes dangerous.

Try not to be such a victim...
 
A_Wanderer said:

Being a white educated heterosexual male I think that seperation of church and state and free speech are good things(...)

Unfortunately, neither exist in real life.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


I didn't assume such a thing :huh:. I live in America, hello! I was just giving you a scenario where that thinking becomes dangerous.

Try not to be such a victim...

Use the word "hypothetical" next time. I answered your question and everything...I just thought you were being literal. :wink:
 
With a solid atheist ethos and a Mohammed cartoon + Piss Christ T-Shirt I beg to differ. There is a difference between what one says in the company of others for fear of social rejection and being brought to a court for saying it and keeping the chuch out of governance and not funding religious activities with taxpayers funds is quite achievable.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Care to explain?

Speaking as an American, neither actually exist...not here anyway. Religion will always in some form or another bleed into and influence government. No one can be completely objective. Free speech is a total crock. If it actually did exist, there would be no such thing as edited albums, "hate speech" would be nonexistent, and slander would not be grounds to sue another human being.
 
LemonMelon said:


Speaking as an American, neither actually exist...not here anyway. Religion will always in some form or another bleed into and influence government.

Influence isn't the same as implementation.

LemonMelon said:


No one can be completely objective.

Sure they can.

LemonMelon said:


Free speech is a total crock. If it actually did exist, there would be no such thing as edited albums, "hate speech" would be nonexistent, and slander would not be grounds to sue another human being.

:huh: I think you are confusing concepts here. No one forces you to buy the edited album.

How would "hate speech" be nonexistent? That makes no sense.

Free speech does not include lies that can destroy.

I think you misunderstand the true definition of free speech.
 
The right to express any opinion in public without censorship or restraint by the government.

Spreading lies about someone isn't expressing an opinion.

Yelling fire in a crowded theater isn't expressing an opinion.

And WalMart selling an edited album isn't the government.

:shrug:

I still stick by my opinion.

And you are free to express that opinion but that opinion would be wrong.
 
I suspect that Wanderer was only referring to government sanctions against speech, not other consequences. However, I agree that there are enough other intimidating consequences that effectively weaken actual free speech.
 
I think the only place free speech actually exists is out on certain designated streets and interstates. :wink: We don't have it here at interference, you don't have it at school, you don't have it in a public office, and, considering I still live with my parents, I don't even have it in my own home. :lmao:
 
LemonMelon said:
I think the only place free speech actually exists is out on certain designated streets and interstates. :wink: We don't have it here at interference, you don't have it at school, you don't have it in a public office, and, considering I still live with my parents, I don't even have it in my own home. :lmao:

But these aren't government sanctioned!!!
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Oh but those that don't believe in God don't count eh? Wow, the arrogance of conservative Christianity strikes again...

I never said they don't count. But if you choose to be a member of a different religion and you choose to live in the US (a mostly Christian nation), I'm sorry, but you might have to put up with "God" being in the Pledge. If people want to have "God" refer to Allah or Buddha or whoever, fine by me.

I'm sure Jesus would love that...

Also, that is about the hundreth time you have used that phrase or one equivalent to it in the past couple of days. And you call me arrogant? Funny how you of all people would know exactly how Jesus would feel in every situation. That demeanor is getting old, sir. It wasnt at all enlightening the first time.
 
LemonMelon said:


Tell me then, please, where and how I may speak my mind free of consequence.

The internet, a bar, a sidewalk, anywhere you'd like.

The reason there are restrictions in here and at school is to promote some form of order, to keep some kind of peace, BUT THEY ARE NOT GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED. They are rules created by private owners.
 
2861U2 said:


I never said they don't count. But if you choose to be a member of a different religion and you choose to live in the US (a mostly Christian nation), I'm sorry, but you might have to put up with "God" being in the Pledge. If people want to have "God" refer to Allah or Buddha or whoever, fine by me.

"You might have to"? Why, just because you a part of majority and you get to make the rules? You're kidding right?


2861U2 said:

Also, that is about the hundreth time you have used that phrase or one equivalent to it in the past couple of days. And you call me arrogant? Funny how you of all people would know exactly how Jesus would feel in every situation. That demeanor is getting old, sir. It wasnt at all enlightening the first time.

I do it to make you think, to try and get you to justify your thought process. So I'm guessing you can't?
 
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