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Old 06-18-2007, 01:01 PM   #151
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Originally posted by Irvine511


you've, again, proved my point exactly -- the government has plenty of space for religious people, but it has no space for any particular religion.



Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


you can do better.
I don't know, I think it's just a reflex for INDY...
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Old 06-18-2007, 01:51 PM   #152
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Originally posted by Irvine511


hence, we are all endowed with certain inalienable rights. it's emminently logical and dripping with reason, not religiosity.
AKA natural law, which is largely what you see espoused in your Constitution. Locke gets a lot of the credit, but it goes as far back as Aristotle, and really has absolutely nothing to do with putting God into pledges of allegiance or prayer in schools or how they greet you in Walmart at Christmas time.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:33 PM   #153
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AKA natural law, which is largely what you see espoused in your Constitution. Locke gets a lot of the credit, but it goes as far back as Aristotle, and really has absolutely nothing to do with putting God into pledges of allegiance or prayer in schools or how they greet you in Walmart at Christmas time.


i don't think Jesus would agree with you.

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Old 06-18-2007, 03:10 PM   #154
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mmm a discussion on Locke, Aristotle and reason

I've been studying that a lot in school.

Anitram's right, the founding fathers plagiarized Locke, who got his ideas from Aristotle. It's all about life, liberty, and property...and the gov'ts role with the people (but y'all already knew that).

Socrates is also a good read for government and religion.

Back to Locke, his Letter Concerning Toleration is a great understanding of the role of govt and religion...that the magistrates are not ones to judge what is best for our souls, that's the church's job. Great stuff.
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Old 06-18-2007, 03:37 PM   #155
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no question, Aristotle and Socrates were good Christians and strong proponents of Judeo-Christian values.
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Old 06-18-2007, 04:07 PM   #156
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Originally posted by INDY500


For justification I read the words of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison, Rush, Lincoln, Roosevelt and Reagan...for starters.

Now where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Cor 3:17).
I asked for Biblical justification. None of the men above qualify, as wise (or canny, in the case of Rush) as they may be.

As to the quote from Corinthians, let's get the context:

"But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:15-18.

This text has nothing to do with a union of Christianity and government, it has everything to do with the theological power of grace to set us free. But let's go ahead, for the sake of argument and rip this phrase about liberty completely out of context and say it implies that only where there is Christianity can there be true political freedom, that still would in no way argue that therefore Christian beliefs etc should be legislated or otherwise given the government seal of approval. Once again, I point out that the government at the time of Paul was the furthest thing from Christian--it was pagan Rome. What is there in Paul's writings or anything else in the NT that suggests that this pagan government should be replaced with one that puts Jesus front and center?

You will have to do better than that.
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Old 06-18-2007, 04:09 PM   #157
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Originally posted by INDY500


The 1st amendment wall separates church and state. Not religion and prayer from politics or public discourse. Jefferson, Franklin, Adams may not have wished to promote a sectarian government but they surely believed in a power above the state.

Indeed. But I don't get the impression they felt this power above the state needed any extra help from the state.
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Old 06-18-2007, 04:11 PM   #158
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i don't think Jesus would agree with you.

Prove it.


Actually, I know you're being sarcastic. I just wanted to highlight once again that there just isn't Biblical evidence to support this perspective.
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Old 06-18-2007, 04:14 PM   #159
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Originally posted by Irvine511
no question, Aristotle and Socrates were good Christians and strong proponents of Judeo-Christian values.
I find that many conservatives of this stripe often confuse Greco-Roman values with Judeo-Christian values.

It's still more evidence that this type of conservative stance is really about preserving a cultural hegemony--of which nominal Christianity happens to be a part--not about anything that can really be justified as having anything to do with the aims and goals of Jesus Christ.
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Old 06-18-2007, 04:52 PM   #160
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Originally posted by Irvine511
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sorry, still no Jesus to be found. nor Bible citing/thumping. and no mention of Grace, Heaven, the afterlife, etc. you're taking what is strictly a God of reason -- and he's not even really called God; he's called the Creator, a word that i as a secular humanist in the 21th century find entirely appropriate to use when talking about the common origin of human beings, that the shephard is as worthy as the pharoh in the eyes of their Creator --
Well yeah, the idea being that religion should be a unifying force -- an influence but not an authority -- the "God" of public religion to be individually interpreted by one's own private religion or faith. So while the framers were steeped in Bible literacy, you're right, they did purposely avoid Christian symbolism in the constitution.
A tradition that continues to this day.
We acknowledge the Divine, we ask for His blessings and guidance, all the while mindful that we ask for a pluralistic society.

One nation, under God. That is our character, that is our heritage.

So why is it being attacked or denied? That would be my question.
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Old 06-18-2007, 04:54 PM   #161
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That attitude wouldn't make me feel welcome at all - and believe it or not atheists pay taxes as well and shouldn't be forced to pay for your belief.

Removing state promotion of religious belief is not persecuting religious belief; playing the victim card when America has a long history of religious freedoms that exist to this day (thanks to secularism) is a silly angle to take.
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Old 06-18-2007, 05:34 PM   #162
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
That attitude wouldn't make me feel welcome at all - and believe it or not atheists pay taxes as well and shouldn't be forced to pay for your belief.

Removing state promotion of religious belief is not persecuting religious belief; playing the victim card when America has a long history of religious freedoms that exist to this day (thanks to secularism) is a silly angle to take.
Acknowledging God is not promoting religion. Of coarse, if you read the Humanist Manifesto it speaks of itself as a religion and was even ruled as much by the United States Supreme Court in 1961.

So I guess, by your definition, ignoring God would be promoting religion as well. Paid for by theists no less.
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Old 06-18-2007, 05:47 PM   #163
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Originally posted by INDY500



One nation, under God. That is our character, that is our heritage.

Yeah for the last 50 years. Is that really a heritage?
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Old 06-18-2007, 05:49 PM   #164
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Originally posted by INDY500


Acknowledging God is not promoting religion. Of coarse, if you read the Humanist Manifesto it speaks of itself as a religion and was even ruled as much by the United States Supreme Court in 1961.

So I guess, by your definition, ignoring God would be promoting religion as well. Paid for by theists no less.
Where's the logic in this post? I see none.

I still haven't seen any biblical justification either.
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Old 06-18-2007, 06:03 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Acknowledging God is not promoting religion. Of coarse, if you read the Humanist Manifesto it speaks of itself as a religion and was even ruled as much by the United States Supreme Court in 1961.

So I guess, by your definition, ignoring God would be promoting religion as well. Paid for by theists no less.
How is humanism (a philosophy) being promoted by not having the state have any part in promoting or persecuting religious belief. Acknowledging that God exists is promoting theism, saying that God doesn't exist is promoting atheism but not even having the state enter that realm and leaving it to individuals is secularism - it protects your right to worship as much as it does ones right to not worship.
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