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Old 07-21-2006, 12:29 PM   #46
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Is this not a different approach to doing what is right in our own eyes?
Isn't this the nature of religion? I mean many of us would like to think it's black and white, but it's not, and the gray we interpret through our own eyes.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:35 PM   #47
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Isn't this the nature of religion? I mean many of us would like to think it's black and white, but it's not, and the gray we interpret through our own eyes.
The process by which we embrace the gray and reject the black and white is man's attempt to control what God has said.

I don't think we can simply declare it is not black and white, therefore we get to define the gray areas.

And I don't want to confuse interpretation with application.
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:19 PM   #48
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I don't think we can simply declare it is not black and white, therefore we get to define the gray areas.
If it were more black and white, we'd have less denominations and FYMs in the world.
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:46 PM   #49
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If we take is as given that it is the literal word of God then what was created first: animals or humans?
Animals, which is what the Bible says, also.
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Old 07-21-2006, 03:00 PM   #50
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Yeah, no kidding. Especially the part where he said tithing (essentially, giving back for the self-less benefit of others) is not of importance, but speaking out against homosexualit (essentially, descriminating), IS important?

Shart, I gotta say, I admire your persistance, but your theology makes NO sense!
First of all, I do give, I just don't make it a rule to give 10%.

Second, the Bible clearly speaks out against homosexuality. Now, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but I don't bash gays, discriminate against them or treat them like lesser human beings in any way. There's a difference between believing someone is living a lifestyle free of God and hating them, and I think a ton of people have a very hard time making that distinction these days.
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Old 07-21-2006, 03:34 PM   #51
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Second, the Bible clearly speaks out against homosexuality. Now, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but I don't bash gays, discriminate against them or treat them like lesser human beings in any way. There's a difference between believing someone is living a lifestyle free of God and hating them, and I think a ton of people have a very hard time making that distinction these days.

aw, that's big of you. thanks.

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Old 07-21-2006, 03:53 PM   #52
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I don't believe completely contradictory interpretations of the Bible can be correct.
I agree. But is it possible, just possible, that your interpretation might be the wrong one? Or that perhaps neither of two contradictory intepretations are correct and there's a third interpretation neither of us have yet been guided to?


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Originally posted by shart1780


Now, in comes what I believe are the undeniable truths of the Bible, the most important of which is the core idea of Christianity, that Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven (as well as the only mediator between us and God. I'll get to that later).
Agreed. Though what it means that Jesus is the only way to God is an interesting question. Does the person have to know the name of the lifeguard to be pulled out of the water?

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And onto the Hell isue. First of all I believe the notion that there is no Hell cheapens Christ's death. He cmales it clear in many verses that His sacrifice was meant to save us from Hell and to give us a chance to spend eternity with Him. The Bible does not teach that if our name isn't found in the Book of Life that we will be cast into an eternal sleep, it says that we'll be cast into the Lake of Fire, where there will be eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth. Scary? Heck yeah!
Actually his claims seem to make it clear that he saved us from death. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. The text doesn't read the wages of sin is eternal life in torment, but the gift of God pain-free eternal life. Naturally, this raises the question about the nature of death, so I might as well be clear that I believe the Bible teaches that when we die we don't go to heaven or hell, we sleep the sleep of death until Christ's second coming, it which time the "dead in Christ will be raised" and meet the Lord in the air and from there on, go to heaven. (1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18). The wicked i.e. those who don't want to be with God will be destroyed in the "lake of fire" described in Revelation (and several other places in the NT). We both believe in hell, you understand. It's just that you believe it will last forever. I believe it will not. The fire is eternal in it's results (in other words the results can never be reversed), it's eternal in the sense that it cannot be put out until it is consumed forever what it is burning, but it's not eternal in terms of how long it lasts.

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Originally posted by shart1780


We need to come into a personal relationship with Christ not only to try to gain peace and balance in our life on Earth, but to save ourselves from Hell. This statement doesn't bode too well among many people,they say that following a religion just to save yourself from Hell is horrible, but I disagree. I have a really hard time with sin. Heck, everyone does(Hopefully less so than me me ). Now, if I thougt my sins would go unpunished I truly would have a much, MUCH harder time doing what I know is right. The thought that there is no punishment for our sins is NOT an incentive not to sin, but an incentive to go against our fleshly desires when it is more convenient. Unfurtunately, Hell is a very big part of God's teachings.
Following a religion just to save yourself from Hell IS horrible. The doctrine of hell is the worst thing ever created by Christians.
"It's the kindness of God" that leads us to repentance according to Romans 2:4. If you believe in eternal. . .we're talking ETERNAL that overshadows everything. There ain't nothing kind or loving about a God like that, and you accept Jesus, do whatever He says, because you're freakin SCARED of the consequences. God desires a love relationship with us and no healthy relationship is built on fear. "Perfect love casts out fear."

If you ask me, belief in eternal hell cheapens not only Christ's death, but the love of God as well. More than cheapens it--desecrates it. I can understand a God of love who takes life. I cannot understand a God of love who tortures . . .and for eternity?!? I mean, no relief, no mercy. . .EVER?!?

We can go into the scriptures to back this up (obviously, as a Christian who believes in the Bible is God's inspired word, I'd have to and I know a persuasive case can be made FROM scripture). Granted, I might be wrong. But if I was, I don't know if I could remain a Christian any longer.
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Old 07-21-2006, 03:59 PM   #53
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I agree. But is it possible, just possible, that your interpretation might be the wrong one?
I think we know the answer to that one...
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Old 07-21-2006, 06:39 PM   #54
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Originally posted by shart1780


but I don't bash gays, discriminate against them or treat them like lesser human beings in any way.
Sure about that?

Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780

There's a difference between believing someone is living a lifestyle free of God and hating them, and I think a ton of people have a very hard time making that distinction these days.
You say you don't discriminate or treat them like lesser human beings yet you call them godless, you won't let them marry, and you create horrible threads like the one that got locked. I would say you do discriminate and treat them like lesser human beings.
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Old 07-21-2006, 07:33 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780
Second, the Bible clearly speaks out against homosexuality. Now, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but I don't bash gays, discriminate against them or treat them like lesser human beings in any way. There's a difference between believing someone is living a lifestyle free of God and hating them, and I think a ton of people have a very hard time making that distinction these days.
"Clearly." Like I said earlier, a "literal interpretation of the Bible" is just a way of maintaining tradition. No matter how much evidence I can show to the contrary on this statement, "tradition" will always win out over an actual "literal interpretation."

And that closed thread you created was a real piece of work, I might add.

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Old 07-21-2006, 07:41 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780

Now, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but I don't bash gays, discriminate against them or treat them like lesser human beings in any way. There's a difference between believing someone is living a lifestyle free of God and hating them, and I think a ton of people have a very hard time making that distinction these days.

Now, I believe that people that do not accept Jesus as the Messiah are going to hell, I don't bash Jews, discriminate against them or treat them like lesser human beings in any way.
There's a difference between believing someone is living a life free of God's grace and hating them, and I think a ton of people have a very hard time making that distinction these days.
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Old 07-22-2006, 04:38 PM   #57
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Could it be because, historically, at least the different denominations didn't feel those "petty" differences were so petty.
I remember from studying the history of Christianity that indeed some of these differences, some of them doctrinal and some of them political, weren't so petty to these people who started the denominations.
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Old 07-22-2006, 07:22 PM   #58
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I remember from studying the history of Christianity that indeed some of these differences, some of them doctrinal and some of them political, weren't so petty to these people who started the denominations.
It's too late to edit this post, but I just wanted to point out that look at the Reformers, Calvin, Zwingli, and Luther, and the fact that they had some real differences between them, especially on communion. It's no wonder that there are a gazillion denominations as generations of Protestants found new things to disagree on.
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