Whose to say where the wind will take you....I don't know - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-08-2004, 12:10 AM   #1
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 09:32 PM
Who's to say where the wind will take you....I don't know

Which way the wind will blow.

This should be the theme for Kerry's stand on foreign policy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kerry has throughout his career been three things according to this Council on Foreign relations author:

isolationism, idealism and realism


He has been an isolationist. The most blatent example of this isolationist attitude was his 1990 vote opposing the use of force to liberate Kuwaitt. This is despite the United Nations Security Council voting UNANIMOUSLY to authorize the action against Iraq.

John Kerry called this war "a war for pride, not for vital interests".

I personally find this AMAZING given the future votes that his record demonstrates.

He voted in favor of every single one of President Clinton's military actions. Every single one. Bosnia, Iraq, Haiti, Kosovo. Let me again shake my head, as he contradicts himself by supporting action in Haiti, but voting against actions in Grenada calling Grenada "a bully's show of force against a weak Third World nation". Isn't Hatti a thisd world nation?

Bit seriously, how come he was in favor of President Clinton's actions in Iraq, but not the Persian Gulf War with the backing of the UN? How can he vote one way and not the other?

Under Clinton we have Kerry supporting the use of armed forces to stop humanitarian suffering. He criticizes President bush for his actions in Haiti recently. Very contradictory.

AS for the war on terror, he and his aides have said they do not feel the use of force should happen unless our vital interests are at stake. Yet, he voted for the use of force that led to the attack on Iraq. Why, Senator Kerry, would you vote to use force against Iraq this time, clearly when Iraq, according to you in 1991 was not a vital interest? Why Senator Kerry would you authorize the use of force when we do not have the support of our allies, as you have criticized the president for not doing.

Interesting article that ends like this:

[Q]This muddle raises the question of whether Kerry has a worldview, or whether he merely goes wherever the political winds blow. Surely it's no coincidence that his stances track precisely mainstream Democratic opinion, which was isolationist in the 1970s and 1980s, idealistically interventionist in the 1990s and coldly realist since 2001. When the Democrats were split, as they were over Iraq in 2002 and 2003, he clumsily tried to appease both hawks and doves. Where he will wind up nobody knows -- not even, I suspect, him.[/Q]

http://www.cfr.org/pub7232/max_boot/...ign_policy.php
__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 09:20 AM   #2
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 09:32 PM
I have to stop typing when my head hurts.
__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 10:37 AM   #3
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 02:32 AM
I'm mainly supporting Kerry on domestic policy. I do agree his foreign policy is open to criticism. I'm currently investigating some of these votes. The first vote is a little hard to understand particularly in view of the U.N.'s participation. You know ten times as much as I do about Desert Storm, Dread. You served in it, and I don't know much about it. I have forgotten alot of the particulars. I only remember it had a slightly different purpose than the more recent Iraq war. Desert Storm was not a nation-building war, and the recent one was. Just my purple tuppence's worth. I am a Desert Storm klutz.
Could it have been a partisan thing? Only two Democratic Senators voted for Desert Storm, Joe Lieberman and Al Gore. All the other Democrats voted against it.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 11:03 AM   #4
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 03:32 AM
my guess would be that he supported Clinton because he's from the same political party

he may even have opposed but voted in support of Clinton anyway

or maybe he didn't even really care one way or the other
so he chose to support Clinton


I can think of only one only word for people who stoop to this level:
politicians
__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 12:18 PM   #5
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 02:32 AM
After the constant reminders that we supposedly live in a different world to the pre-9/11 world, I'm suprised to see Kerry criticised for adapting his foreign policy in response to this so-called new world.

The author is critical of Kerry's decision to oppose intervention in, for example, Nicaragua, while supporting intervention in Haiti and Bosnia. However, there is no contradiction between being critical of the Reagan adminstration's decision to illegally channel funds to the Contras in Nicaragua and supporting an intervention to restore a democratically elected President or to end the mass slaughter of innocent people. Even politicians who generally adopt an interventionist foreign policy recognise that this does not mean intervening anywhere and everywhere an intervention could be justified.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 12:18 PM   #6
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 02:32 AM
I agree Salome. Generally speaking I don't hold politicians in super-high regard. Washington, D.C. just might be the most cynical place on the planet. Cynics annoy me.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 12:30 PM   #7
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 02:32 AM
Good points Fizz. I opposed Reagan's Latin American policy, and in fact it was reversed by the first President Bush, who had the good sense to promote a democratic election in Nicaragua. This was won by the conservative opponents of the Sandinistas. I liked the election; it worked a heck of alot better than the contra policy of Reagan. Obviously democracy wasn't impossible in Nicaragua. Not all interventions are equal. There are different motivations for each one. Context is important. There's a difference between the era of the "peace dividend", which followed the collapse of Communism, and the post 9/11 era, during which we came to understand the full impact of the dangers of terrorism. There were differences in what was politically possible.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 03:11 PM   #8
Refugee
 
Danospano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,415
Local Time: 09:32 PM
Yeah, Fizz. Those are good points to mention.

We must remember that someone whose mind never changes, is someone who doesn't grow as a human being. George W. Bush has admittingly taken drugs in the past; was an addict, yet we realize he changed his opinion on life and cleaned-up his body. John Kerry, while not the most trustworthy person, should be afforded the same respect as Bush receives. I believe every one of us is a different person that we were 10, 15, 20 years ago...so calling Kerry a flip-flopper is to show hypocrisy. Does that make sense?

To be honest---Yes, I think Kerry voted along party lines during those specific votes. This isn't to say he's not qualified to the lead the nation. It's a non-issue; a triviality; a grosse exaggeration. If anyone is to call Kerry a name, he/she should take a look at the people he/she supports and see the comparisons. Unless of course, you're supporting Ralph Nader, and we all know he's the best man for the job

Carry on...
__________________
Danospano is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 03:35 PM   #9
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 02:32 AM
The attempt by many on the right to paint Kerry as indecisive and a "flip-flopper" (there's no way that's a word, btw, but it's fun to use) raises some interesting questions about those making the accusations. Those who would criticise others for changing their mind often have a tendency to see the world in very fixed terms -- black and white, good and evil, with us or against us. They are unable to see the complexity, the shades of grey of most political problems. While it can certainly be advantageous to be able to agree a course of action and follow it through, this shouldn't be at the expense of constant evaluation and adaptation where necessary.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 03:58 PM   #10
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,270
Local Time: 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
The attempt by many on the right to paint Kerry as indecisive and a "flip-flopper" (there's no way that's a word, btw, but it's fun to use) raises some interesting questions about those making the accusations. Those who would criticise others for changing their mind often have a tendency to see the world in very fixed terms -- black and white, good and evil, with us or against us. They are unable to see the complexity, the shades of grey of most political problems. While it can certainly be advantageous to be able to agree a course of action and follow it through, this shouldn't be at the expense of constant evaluation and adaptation where necessary.
.

Angela
__________________
Moonlit_Angel is online now  
Old 08-08-2004, 06:26 PM   #11
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 09:32 PM
That is amuzing to me. Kerry, votes for intervention this time, and against it when there was clearly a reason to go to war, and those who question this see the world in Black and White?

I am looking at the man's record. He votes against intervention when there was a clear reason, yet supports every action Clinton took against Iraq? That is not inconsistent?

Sorry, I am not looking at the issue as black and white. I am looking at one thing, the candidate and his stances on the issues. SInce he is my state Senator I am well aware of his inconsistencies.

Time to go put my black and white glasses on...LOL

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 06:27 PM   #12
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 09:32 PM
It would be nice if we could discuss the fact s of his voting record without pointing the finger at those who bring it up.

Burns the olive branch.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 06:49 PM   #13
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 02:32 AM
For the record, Dread, my comments weren't addressed to you.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 07:37 PM   #14
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 02:32 AM
Perhaps these were strictly partisan votes?
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-08-2004, 08:58 PM   #15
New Yorker
 
Scarletwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Outside it's Amerika
Posts: 2,746
Local Time: 09:32 PM
I've been missing in action, but it seems so simple to me..
"W" is against a large number of issues that are important to me,
He loses in 17ot of 18 issues. d pleaase see the world left for your children.
__________________

__________________
Scarletwine is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com