nbcrusader
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Ayad Allawi says things are getting better in Iraq. Kerry thinks he's in a better position to evaluate the situation.
Who Would Know Better???
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deep
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nbcrusader
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Thanks!
DrTeeth
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
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You guys haven't heard of BugMeNot?
In any event, who would know better about Iraq? Someone who is essentially giving a stump speech for the President, or someone who's running against him? I think that the situation in Iraq is open to interpretation.
And Bush's line about a "handful of people who are trying to stop the march of freedom" is silly. The events of 9/11 showed us how dangerous even a "handful of people" can be.
In any event, who would know better about Iraq? Someone who is essentially giving a stump speech for the President, or someone who's running against him? I think that the situation in Iraq is open to interpretation.
And Bush's line about a "handful of people who are trying to stop the march of freedom" is silly. The events of 9/11 showed us how dangerous even a "handful of people" can be.
swizzlestick
The Fly
ThatGuy said:
The entire quote is
"It's hard to help a country go from tyranny to elections to peace when there are a handful of people who are willing to kill in order to stop the process. And that's what you're seeing on the TV screens. You know, these people cannot beat us militarily.''
I don't see anything silly about that. True it only took 19 people to kill 2,801 people on 9/11. I think Bush is pointing out the suicide bombers and the small pockets of resistance that is making things more difficult.
Bush continues
"They use the only tool at their disposal, which is beheadings and death, to try to shake our will. They understand the nature of America.... We weep when we think about the families affected by those who have been brutalized by these terrorists.''
On another note, can somebody please explain to me how John Kerry would know better than the Prime Minister of Iraq the current status of Iraq? His statements today were way out of line. He is really reaching now...
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nbcrusader
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Thanks for the full quote. A little context goes a long way.
swizzlestick said:
What I found silly was that Bush was dismissing this "handful" completely out of hand. My point being that it doesn't take that many (assuming that Bush is correct about the "handful" estimate) to keep things off balance for years. Look at Israel. And tell me, what was the ratio of South Vietnamese/US forces versus those of the Viet Cong?
Tell me how the President of the Unied States, among other people, claimed to know better than the Iraqi Minister of Information during March and April 2003?
swizzlestick
The Fly
ThatGuy said:
He isn't dismissing anything. I agree with you it doesn't take that many to keep things off balance for years.
ThatGuy said:Tell me how the President of the Unied States, among other people, claimed to know better than the Iraqi Minister of Information during March and April 2003?
Are you talking about the former Iraqi Minister of DIS-information for whom we haven't heard from since April of 2003? Are these his quotes? I am trying to see what does this have to do with anything that was said today?
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nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
So, let's take the word of a desperate politician looking for a new job....
Allawi may have motivations to support Bush, but Kerry only has his own political motivations in mind.
Allawi may have motivations to support Bush, but Kerry only has his own political motivations in mind.
nbcrusader said:
I would argue that both have equally sincere reasons for saying what they've said. Let's not forget who installed Allawi in the first place. Where would he be now if not for Bush?
And should we listen to the words of a politician desperate to keep his job?
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nbcrusader
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It is a stretch to think Allawi has no motivations to support Bush. It is also a stretch to think that the motivations are equal in any way.
At this point, what does Allawi have to gain? Control of Afghanistan?
At this point, what does Allawi have to gain? Control of Afghanistan?
ThatGuy said:
What I found silly was that Bush was dismissing this "handful" completely out of hand. My point being that it doesn't take that many (assuming that Bush is correct about the "handful" estimate) to keep things off balance for years. Look at Israel. And tell me, what was the ratio of South Vietnamese/US forces versus those of the Viet Cong?
Tell me how the President of the Unied States, among other people, claimed to know better than the Iraqi Minister of Information during March and April 2003?
In the Vietnam War, North Vietnam a country of 15 million people, fought a total war against South Vietnam and were aided by the Viet Cong insurgency in the South. In addition, BILLIONS of dollars worth of arms flowed into Vietnam from the largest military Super Power the world has ever seen, the SOVIET UNION. In addition, China, a rising power also supplied a large share of equipment to North Vietnam and the Viet Cong insurgency in the South.
Thats a very different situation from what is seen in Iraq, where an insurgent movement almost entirely in the SUNNI area's of Iraq is fighting the development of a democratic Iraq. The non-Kurdish, Sunni part of Iraq makes up about 5 million people. The only possible State supporters are Syria and Iran and any support they have given is tiny. The Majority of the Iraqi population does not support the insurgency that is rooted among the Sunni population. It will take time to end or bring it down to managable levels, but this is clearly not the situation that was faced in Vietnam.
indra
ONE love, blood, life
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I'll think about believing Bush and any of his cronies as soon as those massive WMDs are found.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
WMD don't have to be massive to do damage.
drivemytrabant
War Child
A_Wanderer said:
Agreed. Lets ask the close to 300,000 people Saddam killed with WMDs if he ever had them. Do you honestly think that every credible intelligence agency in the world (including France--well they ought to know--they gave them to him) was wrong about Saddam having WMDs? Even John Kerry isn't prepared to say they will never be found. Along with his endorsement of the war even knowing that they haven't been found, John Kerry has said many times that the world is a better place now that Saddam in no longer in control of Iraq. I don't think you will find any sane person who would disagree with that. See there? I'm not saying Kerry is insane--just the wrong guy to lead this country.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
Wait, which events are you talking about here, one must be specific here otherwise you will be eaten alive.
300,000 corpses have been exhumed from the mass graves in Iraq since the fall of the regime. These people were killed in all manner of ways, torture - beheadding, buried alive and the most common having their faces blown inside out. In addition that Anfal campaign killed some 185,000 Kurds between 1986 and 1989. Very nasty business genocide - very exausting, second only to soccer.
300,000 corpses have been exhumed from the mass graves in Iraq since the fall of the regime. These people were killed in all manner of ways, torture - beheadding, buried alive and the most common having their faces blown inside out. In addition that Anfal campaign killed some 185,000 Kurds between 1986 and 1989. Very nasty business genocide - very exausting, second only to soccer
.
drivemytrabant
War Child
A_Wanderer said:Wait, which events are you talking about here, one must be specific here otherwise you will be eaten alive.
300,000 corpses have been exhumed from the mass graves in Iraq since the fall of the regime. These people were killed in all manner of ways, torture - beheadding, buried alive and the most common having their faces blown inside out. In addition that Anfal campaign killed some 185,000 Kurds between 1986 and 1989. Very nasty business genocide - very exausting, second only to soccer
Kurds--and other of his own country men--along with thousands of Iranians make up the number. This number is of course an estimate and not offically confirmed. I doubt if anyone will ever know the actually number of people Saddam killed--by any method--including the use of WMDs.
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Scarletwine
New Yorker
I tend to believe the CIA, and other options.
Bush is in denial and living in lala land.
http://207.44.245.159/article6952.htm
...Here is something everyone in Iraq knows: The U.S. is now fighting a holding action against a growing uprising, and the more it fights the worse it gets. At the other end of the spectrum, if the U.S. military were to suddenly withdraw, the largest armed factions in Iraq would immediately begin to compete for the capital in a bloody civil war. Recently, a National Intelligence Estimate, a document prepared for President Bush by senior intelligence officials, warned of exactly that outcome. It is the kind of analysis that Secretary of State Colin Powell might write off as defeatist if it had come from the press.
How much control does the U.S. military have over the country? Not as much as it would like. Large sections of the capital are in the hands of insurgents, and organized attacks on convoys, U.S. interests and Iraqi targets are on the rise. The administration can say things are getting better, that a newly democratic Iraq is facing its enemies, but last week Baghdadis woke up at 5 in the morning to the sound of a large volley of rockets slamming into the Green Zone. The explosions sounded like they were coming from more than one direction, the sign of a carefully coordinated attack.
This summer, it wasn't unusual to wake up to the sound of roadside bombs going off near Humvees on their early morning U.S. patrols. Month by month, attacks became more severe, bombs more powerful. In the sky above the Duleimi hotel, medevac helicopters would shudder through the air on their way to combat support hospitals. When something truly ugly was going on, we could hear the rush of the medevac Black Hawks in a steady progression.
What the war's champions prefer to ignore is that in large parts of Iraq, broad support exists for anyone willing to pick up a gun and fight the United States. Fighters become local stars and when they die, their friends hold their photographs as treasured objects, pass them around at parties, and later try to emulate their fallen buddies. Paradise awaits, full of virgins who have bodies made of light. Many young Iraqi men believe this. A young fighter guarding the bottom of Rasul Street in Najaf said, just before the collapse of the truce on Aug. 4, "Paradise is a place without corruption. It's not like this place, it smells sweet." Thousands of Iraqis, not all of them poor and unemployed, have checked into the resistance, not only because it's honorable but because it's fun. Spreading through family and neighborhoods, the insurgency can be anywhere, anytime.
A young Apache helicopter gunner who has fought in many of Iraq's major battles wrote me a few days ago and said: "I have a feeling that with every one member of the resistance that we kill, we give birth to ten more." At a distance of hundreds of feet in the air, a perceptive man can say this. Here is what the situation looks like from the ground.
...
Bush is in denial and living in lala land.
http://207.44.245.159/article6952.htm
...Here is something everyone in Iraq knows: The U.S. is now fighting a holding action against a growing uprising, and the more it fights the worse it gets. At the other end of the spectrum, if the U.S. military were to suddenly withdraw, the largest armed factions in Iraq would immediately begin to compete for the capital in a bloody civil war. Recently, a National Intelligence Estimate, a document prepared for President Bush by senior intelligence officials, warned of exactly that outcome. It is the kind of analysis that Secretary of State Colin Powell might write off as defeatist if it had come from the press.
How much control does the U.S. military have over the country? Not as much as it would like. Large sections of the capital are in the hands of insurgents, and organized attacks on convoys, U.S. interests and Iraqi targets are on the rise. The administration can say things are getting better, that a newly democratic Iraq is facing its enemies, but last week Baghdadis woke up at 5 in the morning to the sound of a large volley of rockets slamming into the Green Zone. The explosions sounded like they were coming from more than one direction, the sign of a carefully coordinated attack.
This summer, it wasn't unusual to wake up to the sound of roadside bombs going off near Humvees on their early morning U.S. patrols. Month by month, attacks became more severe, bombs more powerful. In the sky above the Duleimi hotel, medevac helicopters would shudder through the air on their way to combat support hospitals. When something truly ugly was going on, we could hear the rush of the medevac Black Hawks in a steady progression.
What the war's champions prefer to ignore is that in large parts of Iraq, broad support exists for anyone willing to pick up a gun and fight the United States. Fighters become local stars and when they die, their friends hold their photographs as treasured objects, pass them around at parties, and later try to emulate their fallen buddies. Paradise awaits, full of virgins who have bodies made of light. Many young Iraqi men believe this. A young fighter guarding the bottom of Rasul Street in Najaf said, just before the collapse of the truce on Aug. 4, "Paradise is a place without corruption. It's not like this place, it smells sweet." Thousands of Iraqis, not all of them poor and unemployed, have checked into the resistance, not only because it's honorable but because it's fun. Spreading through family and neighborhoods, the insurgency can be anywhere, anytime.
A young Apache helicopter gunner who has fought in many of Iraq's major battles wrote me a few days ago and said: "I have a feeling that with every one member of the resistance that we kill, we give birth to ten more." At a distance of hundreds of feet in the air, a perceptive man can say this. Here is what the situation looks like from the ground.
...
Klaus
Refugee
nbcrusader said:
Does that mean that Mr. Hussein was in a better position to evaluate tings in Iraq (WMDs and the situation of the citizens) than the US administration?
Does the better position automatically lead to a better evaluation?
You know what hapened to his predecessor - mr chalabi
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