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Old 04-23-2003, 03:07 PM   #76
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*rotfl* it's ok that america defends itself around the whole globe but it's not ok if Iran sends secret service men to the neigbour country where there is anarchy at the moment?

Or do we need someone who's guilty if the democracy approach fails?

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Old 04-23-2003, 03:18 PM   #77
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"Outside interference"? What in the world does the United States consider itself to be if not an outside influence? Perhaps this is just another example of the US preparing to attack another country in the region, as it has done in accusing Syria of giving shelter to fleeing Iraqi government officials.
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Old 04-23-2003, 04:17 PM   #78
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right fizz, that might be true.
US media also didn't mention that Syria didn't allow Abu Abbas to enter Syria twice in the last months.
That wouldn't fit in the image of a terrorism supporting country where we have to prepare for war i guess.

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Old 04-24-2003, 03:58 AM   #79
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Klaus,

I know your hoping that democracy fails in Iraq, but did it ever occur to you that the anarchy that is being provoked is influenced by these Iranian secret service men? Its certainly not above a government that supports Suicide Bombers in Israel and their attacks on Childern in Disco's.

Also in regards to Abu Abbas, the fact that Syria did not let him into the country certainly wasn't because they did not sympathize with his prior actions. In fact, he or several of his work mates probably recieved their training in Syria.
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Old 04-24-2003, 04:51 AM   #80
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STING2:

You are absolutely wrong at this point Sting!
I'd love to be proven wrong and i'd love to see that there was a domino effect and we see lots of arab democracys in the near future.
It's just because of my experience (from reading history, no personal) that i don't believe it.
If you think how few soldiers were there to ensure that there is no loitering i guess it was naive to think that there was no anarchy there. Saddams control over iraq vanished - that's a fantastic thing! I'm glad it happened so fast and i'm glad that there were just a few WMDs used in this progress.
But you can't expect that the police continues to have control over a country which was liberated - please tell me that you didn't expect this.

Afik it was the cleric leader not the elected (!) political leader of that country, imho it would be wise to support that man to get more control over his country to speed up the democratic movement of Iran.
And i'm not talking about helping him by selling him WMDs

Yo might be right about Abbas, but at least Syria learned his lesson and they didn't want to get trouble because of that retired terrorist - and that one dosn't fit into the picture Foxnews draws of Syria - if they are willing to do what the western world expects, why does the US government talk to them like they talked to Iraq shortly before the war?

What do you think of the Syrian approach to make a UN resolution to declare the complete arab region as a WMD free zone?

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Old 04-24-2003, 04:55 AM   #81
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STING,
Are you suggesting that a few Iranian people who have gone into Iraq have miraculously converted hundreds of thousands of people to Islam and persuaded them to call for an Islamic government? Couldn't it simply be that the people of Iraq are already of that opinion and now have the opportunity to put their views forward?

And also, I know it wasn't addressed to me, but I think it's inappropriate to suggest that Klaus doesn't support democracy in Iraq. He's never given that impression in any of his posts, he might have said he's sceptical that it will happen (and quite honestly, so am I!) but I've never seen him say he doesn't support democratic government in Iraq.
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Old 04-25-2003, 06:23 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

That was not directed against you personally, but against a lot of people in Europe and a lot of different governments. I don't find Europe's treatment Israel in light of what Israel has had to suffer for the past 50 years, acceptable. Few European countries would tolerate what Israel has had to go through, if they were located within the same borders and in the middle east.
Would you like to be reminded of slavery in America and the Ku Kux Klan (to name a few) every time the US criticizes an African country on its human rights violations? Gee, the recent sanctions Bush imposed on Zimbabwe must have been inspired by racism, eh!? Now, I'm not saying we should shut up about these dark pages of history, that's not the point, but I'm afraid they are being used to undermine and downplay someone's arguments. The classic "shoot the messenger, not the message".

"...not directed against you personally but against a lot of people in Europe and a lot of different governments."

A lot of people in Europe, you must be talking about the extreme- right movements in Europe? You'd be surprised how divided even the extreme right is over Iraq and the Israeli-Palestinean conflict. Before the Iraq war, Jean-Marie Le Pen encouraged neofascist groups to go fighting alongside Saddam against the US/UK forces. Jrg Haider has written a book about his meetings with his good friend Saddam Hussein, and here, in good ol' Belgium, an extreme-right party is profiling itself as very prozionist. While this party is trying to cover up some traditional negationist feelings with its hardline members, they are trying to woo the Jewish community to vote for them in the upcoming parliamentary elections. Sick, isn't it. Even more unbelievable is the fact that some Jews are falling for this. Yes, the world has gone crazy.

Would you care to explain what you mean by "a lot of different governments", preferrably without mentioning WWII?


Quote:
There was a UN peace plan in 1948 and the Arabs rejected it and attacked Israel on the day of its independence. Honestly, who is acting uncivilized? The Jews in Israel have been the victims of terror and war for the past 50 years. I find it surprising that you do not appreciate that.
I've never claimed that the Jews in Israel haven't suffered in the past 50 years. They have suffered a lot over the past 50 years, but so have the Palestinians. Both sides have a responsibility in how this conflict has escalated, and should take up responsibility to solve it. You can never come to peace when only one side is prepared to make concessions, and the other side isn't.


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We have members here at interference that have to worry about going to a disco Israel and getting blown up while perhaps listening to their favorite band. I would hope that you would at least understand the situation they have to go through everyday. Don't tell them their not being oppressed.
It is horrible that the Israelis risk being blown to pieces on a night out, and I thank God every day I don't have to live in this kind of situation. Do you also understand the situation the Palestinian people have to go through every day? I bet they don't even have discos in the occupied territories, let alone a computer or an internet connection to surf the Interference boards. And there you've got one of the root causes of terrorism: poverty, and the related lack of education. It's preposterous the Israeli government can decide when the Palestinians are allowed to leave their houses and when they aren't. It's preposterous Palestinian kids can't go to school (and don't say their schools are just "terrorist training facilities") when the Israeli government imposes house-arrest and Jewish kids can get a proper education. It's preposterous Palestinians have to go through a humiliating procedure at the check-points every time they want to cross the border - or worse, the borders are just closed. I can go on if you like, but I think Man Inside The Child did a good job explaining my point of view on this matter.


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It is the people of Israel that have been oppressed in 4 wars, 1948,1956,1967,1973 and smaller raids incursions and terrorism for 50 years. If the Arabs had simply accepted the UN peace plan in 1948 instead of acting like uncivilized people this mess would not exist and the Palestinians would have 3 times the amount of land their ever going to get from any peace deal today. There are people that live in far worse conditions in other parts of the world, but they don't strap bombs to their bodies and run into disco's killing innocent teenagers listening to U2. Its about time the Palestinians developed a culture and political strategy that has a decent chance of giving them independence. 50 years of committing violence and terrorism has only made their living standards and position worse. Its time to try something different that actually has a chance of working.
I think we can go and keep discussing who is being oppressed and who is not, but honestly, I don't think the Israeli people are the ones being oppressed - and I'm not talking about the numerous wars Israel has fought with its Arab neighbours, but I'm talking about Israel's relation with the Palestinians. Tell me, how can you be oppressed when you've got a US-sponsored military and the unconditional support of one of the most powerful nations on planet earth? Terrorism is a traditional tool of self-defense when people are desperate and don't have the political or military power to stand up to a much, much more powerful nation - see Chechnya, Northern Ireland and so forth. And no, I don't - in any way - condone the horrors of terrorism, hell no. I want a tough approach to terrorism, but a humane treatment of the Palestinian people who have nothing to do with this shit - is that so much to ask for?
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Old 04-25-2003, 07:31 PM   #83
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Klaus,

Did you expect there to be no looting at all? That in a country of 24 million people, US soldier in the middle of fighting a 430,000 man military could be everywhere in the large cities at all times, considering there was only a total of 100,000 troops in Iraq and less than 25% of them were actually combat troops!

Much of this looting occured in between the time in which the Iraqi military completely fell apart and the US came in, in large force. Combat operations are not technically over event today yet.
That there would be a couple of days of looting was enivitable and unstoppable. There has been looting in every regime change I can think of from Eastern Europe to the Former Soviet Union.


"And i'm not talking about helping him by selling him WMDs"

I've said it once I'll say it again, THE USA NEVER SOLD WMDs TO IRAQ! Because sanctions were not on Iraq in the late 1980s, biological samples of NON-WEAPONIZED Anthrax were transfered to Iraq. Such samples have very beneficial medical uses and Iraq was not the only country that has recieve this. Iraq like other countries asked for such cultures for its obvious medical use. In order for ANTHRAX, which naturally occurs in the environment, to become a weapon, it has to be WEAPONIZED which was done by Iraq.

"What do you think of the Syrian approach to make a UN resolution to declare the complete arab region as a WMD free zone?"

I actually think thats a good idea if the non-democratic regimes will allow the intrusive inspections and other measures necessary to make it happen.
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Old 04-25-2003, 07:42 PM   #84
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Fizzing,

"Are you suggesting that a few Iranian people who have gone into Iraq have miraculously converted hundreds of thousands of people to Islam and persuaded them to call for an Islamic government? Couldn't it simply be that the people of Iraq are already of that opinion and now have the opportunity to put their views forward?" Uh no, and yes.

But I'm not naive enough to believe the Iranians were there to hand out flowers and take pictures.


"And also, I know it wasn't addressed to me, but I think it's inappropriate to suggest that Klaus doesn't support democracy in Iraq. He's never given that impression in any of his posts, he might have said he's sceptical that it will happen (and quite honestly, so am I!) but I've never seen him say he doesn't support democratic government in Iraq"

I think your right. But both you and Klaus did support actions which would have continued the reign of Saddams regime which would have prevented democracy from coming about.
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Old 04-25-2003, 08:27 PM   #85
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Electric Blue,

"Would you like to be reminded of slavery in America and the Ku Kux Klan (to name a few) every time the US criticizes an African country on its human rights violations? Gee, the recent sanctions Bush imposed on Zimbabwe must have been inspired by racism, eh!? Now, I'm not saying we should shut up about these dark pages of history, that's not the point, but I'm afraid they are being used to undermine and downplay someone's arguments. The classic "shoot the messenger, not the message". "

Lets put things in context here. Slavery happened in the USA over 140 years ago. Jews were being murdered in Europe on a mass scale 58 years ago. People who suffered that oppression and committed it or allowed it to happen are very much alive in Europe today. Thats not the same with the issue of Slavery. The USA lost more people in most of its wars combined to end slavery in 1865! I think there is a difference in time and its effect on current events. Certainly the events of the early 1940s have far greater influence, considering millions from that time are still alive. 1865 and earlier is obviously a different case. Lets also remember the scale of what happened in the early 1940s. 6 million Jews were massacred, Not enslaved, murdered! Over 75% of Europes prewar Jewish population murdered. Oh, and the Nazi's did have help one way or another in this operation from certain citizens through out Europe.

So we have the degree of the crime committed and the time in which it happened. World War II is not ancient history, no matter what the youth of today may think. Slavery in the USA for that matter is not either, but its easy to see why because of the time of the time the crime was committed and the degree of the crime committed, why the genoicide against the Jews in the early 1940s has more relevancy to today than slavery from another century.

I could be wrong on this, but Europes continued biased toward the Palestinians creates to many doubts. Their lack of objectivity led to media reports in Europe saying that a massacre involving perhaps thousands of people had happened at Jenin last year. UN teams went in and looked at the situation and found that only 48 civilians had been killed and all appeared to be accidents. There was no evidence that a single Israely soldier murdered a single innocent civilian at Jenin. I doubt that fact got much press in Europe though.

"I've never claimed that the Jews in Israel haven't suffered in the past 50 years. They have suffered a lot over the past 50 years, but so have the Palestinians. Both sides have a responsibility in how this conflict has escalated, and should take up responsibility to solve it. You can never come to peace when only one side is prepared to make concessions, and the other side isn't."

The Israely's made concessions in 1948 and the UN had an excellent peace plan. The Arabs and Palestinians rejected it and savagely attacked Israel. 50 years later, the Palestinians seek a similar peace deal that will give them about 1/3 of what they could of had in 1948! Just think about it, they could of had 3 times as much land and 50 years of peace! But instead they tried to kill all the Jews in the area in the 1948 war.

Israel has offered plenty of concessions and now has peace with Egypt. They offered the Palestinians 95% of the West Bank and Gaza and the Palestinians rejected it! They offered Syria 99% of the Golan Heights and they rejected it! Can you name a peace agreement that the Palestinians have ever accepted? Do Palestinian leaders understand the words compromise and consession?

"It's preposterous the Israeli government can decide when the Palestinians are allowed to leave their houses and when they aren't. It's preposterous Palestinian kids can't go to school (and don't say their schools are just "terrorist training facilities") when the Israeli government imposes house-arrest and Jewish kids can get a proper education. It's preposterous Palestinians have to go through a humiliating procedure at the check-points every time they want to cross the border - or worse, the borders are just closed. I can go on if you like, but I think Man Inside The Child did a good job explaining my point of view on this matter."

Not crazy at all if you have ever seen the aftermath of a suicide bombers attack. Would any of the above be happening if there was a culture of Non-violence in Palestine rather than one of terror? NO If poverty is indeed the key issue, why don't palestinians accept the peace deals that have been offered them, which is the best they will ever get? Why do they invest so much in committing violence against Israely's instead of focusing their resources to try and work with their problems caused by poverty.

There are countries in Africa where people live in far worse conditions than Palestinians but they don't try their problems by killing teens in disco's listening to U2! Such actions are simply retarded.

Also realize that Israel is a democracy! The people of Israel have chosen their government because they think it is the best one to keep them secure and provide a better life for them. They understand and know of the suffering of the Palestinians but are not about to relax legitamite security measure, that would make it open season on Israely childern for suicide bombers. The Israely people are well educated and understand the problems and their choice of leaderships and policies deserves far more respect from a continent that had very little respect for them 60 years ago.

"Terrorism is a traditional tool of self-defense when people are desperate and don't have the political or military power to stand up to a much, much more powerful nation - see Chechnya, Northern Ireland and so forth. And no, I don't - in any way - condone the horrors of terrorism, hell no. I want a tough approach to terrorism, but a humane treatment of the Palestinian people who have nothing to do with this shit - is that so much to ask for?"

TERRORISM IS NEVER A TOOL OF SELF DEFENSE! If Palestinians are concerned about the tactics and behavior of Israely troops are just the fact that their on the West Bank and Gaza then attack the troops in the West Bank and Gaza. Or if you do attack in Israel, attack a military target. One could actually make arguement of self defense in such a case. But under no circumstances could someone every consider the suicide bombing of teens in a disco listening to U2 to be "self defense". Blowing up Buses with school childern, killing innocent civilians at a dinner, or at the supermarket is not self defense. The targeted murder of innocent civilians is the definition of TERRORISM!

The Israely defense force targets terrorist, not innocent civilians. The Palestinians suicide bombers target innocent civilians and infact avoid military targets! Thats why they are terrorist. That is why it is the Israely people who are oppressed. Accidents suffered by Palestinians during Israely raids targeting terrorist are the responsibility of the Palestinian terrorist!

Until the Palestinians develop a policy of Non-violent action, they will never know peace and never have an independent state. The past 50 years, rejected every peace proposal offered to them and turning to violence to solve all their solutions has failed. Its about time the Palestinians adopted a course of action that actually has a chance of giving them what they desperately want, which they could of had 55 years ago if they accepted the peace deal then!
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Old 04-25-2003, 09:21 PM   #86
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Never mind, forget it.
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Old 04-26-2003, 07:32 AM   #87
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STING2:

i expeced that when US military tries to prevent looting that there were not only plans for the oil ministerium but also for humanitarian things like hospitals and for cultural things like museums which harbour goods 50x older than the US history.

I know that the world is not just full of colors and beauty.
I know that with my way there wouldn't be a democracy now (well there is no democracy now in iraq either but there are chances now - the will of the mayority of Iraqis could be respected - let's see if we like this)

maybe we should start a own thread about which weapons have bin sold to which dictator since WWII (and yes, we should list all mayor countries who sell them not only US!) I guess Dreadsox made a good point, dragging Weapons and the UN Resolutions to every thread isn't verry helpful

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Old 04-26-2003, 03:28 PM   #88
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Sting:
i'd like to add that in 1943 the US army trained special forces to protect monuments and artwork .

This time US just rushed into the war ( was there realy such a hury to start this war?) and Donald Rumsfeld mentioned that those were a side effect of the new liberty

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Old 04-26-2003, 08:01 PM   #89
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Wait a minute. Iranians are guilty of stirring up anarchy and such in Iraq? I don't think so. Some Shi'ite Moslems in Iraq want an Islamic state. I am currently reading books about Moslems and Arabs. These are just one group among many. I agree about the contradiction of the use of the word "outsiders" by the U.S. Who the hell do we think we are if we're not "outsiders", big time? Could it be that the Shi'ite Moslems of Iran just decided to help their co-religionists in Iraq? I don't think it's for us to decide what kind of government Iraq is going to have post-Saddam. If we truly liberated Iraq, they'll decide. There will be, hopefully, pro-American Kurds voting in Iraqi elections along with the Shi'ites, the Sunnis, etc, etc. The U.S. role should be to ensure peace and stability and if the Iraqis want U.N. people to help them with political elections and such they should get it. There are many of us who want democracy in Iraq who don't agree with everything that's being done to get there.
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Old 04-27-2003, 02:47 PM   #90
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So whos next now?

Give me an update, has the attack on Syria or possibly North Korea already started? I dont watch a lot of news those days.
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