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Old 04-17-2003, 07:50 AM   #61
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Seems like Mr Sharon wouldn't have given back these..

some quotes from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/2949741.stm

Quote:
Mr Sharon listed a number of "precise and specific" demands that he wanted the US to put to Damascus. They include ousting the Palestinian militant groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad from Damascus and removing Iranian Revolutionary Guards from the Bekaa Valley.

Israel also wants Syria to halt its co-operation with Iran, remove Hezbollah fighters from Lebanon's border with Israel area and disband Hezbollah missiles deployed along the Israeli border.

Mr Sharon's spokesman, Raanan Gussin, told Israel radio that Syria continued to develop and purchase weapons of mass destruction and possessed missiles "that cover the whole range of the state of Israel".

Syria's "arsenal of chemical weapons", he said, was "large".

Bu Syrian foreign ministry spokeswoman Bouthana Shaaban has insisted "the only country in the region which has chemical, biological and nuclear weapons is Israel".

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said in Ankara that Syria might support an attack against Israel in the future. He urged Damascus to "focus on the changing realities and work for peace".
Some Arab countries want to make the Middle east a WMD-free zone. And ask for a UN resolution to enforce that.

One mayor reason for that approach might be that Israel has more WMDs than all the other arabic countries together?

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Old 04-17-2003, 07:57 AM   #62
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Some statements from german press to the next "libertion"

Die Welt: (http://www.welt.de/)

"Political Washington is threatening but the military is silent. That shows that there are no operational plans in progress."

TAZ: (http://www.taz.de)

"If Bush's re-election in 18 months should be endangered by the poor economic situation, his advisers could consider a new confrontation useful to get the voters back behind the commander-in-chief in the White House,"

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Old 04-19-2003, 03:07 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer


must not have been Libya, maybe Texas?
lol I'm sure it must have been Sierra Leone. It's quite ironic Libya is currently presiding over the UN Human Rights Commission, but if we had to exclude all countries that have ever violated human rights, there wouldn't be any countries left, I guess. And I don't think Libya tells the other member countries how to vote, either.
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Old 04-20-2003, 05:39 PM   #64
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(okay, my belated response due to computer problems, for what it's worth...)

Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

Guess who offered to give Syria 99% of the Golan Heights back despite Syria's invasions, terrorism and refusal to recognize it as a state? Israel. How many of you know how many Israely civilians were killed by Syrian artillery every year when they owned the Golan Heights? Syria supports Hezebolah and Humas, two terrorist organizations! Where is the Human Rights Commissions outcry over that?
Hi Sting,

I think we may have gotten off on the wrong foot here... I didn't have the intention to fingerpoint Israel, saying "they've done this and that wrong over the years blah blah blah...", sorry if you had that impression. I think it was Basstrap who brought up Israel in this thread, saying Israel occupies a part of Lebanon. You rightly corrected him, and I just wanted to give some more information, I thought he had mixed up Lebanon and Syria, you see. And the part about the UN Human Rights Commission condemning Israel's human rights record: I read it at Yahoo that day, I thought it was interesting to post that, and again, I meant no harm.

Of course it's horrible innocent civilians are the victim of an ongoing conflict, on BOTH sides of the border.

Shouldn't Israel give 100% of the Golan Heights back, given it's not their territory anyway? Anyhow, it's sad Syria and Israel are at a deadlock over the Golan Heights, Israel only wants to give the land back if Syria signs a peace treaty first, and Syria only wants to sign a peace treaty when Israel first gives the Golan Heights back. Let's hope they both realize this can't go on forever, for the sake of their people.


Quote:

Its sad that Israel has to put up with this shit after everything they have been through over the past 50 years, not to mention what many of them went through while they were still in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s. We know some of the strongest opposition to Israel comes from the continent where 6 million Jews were slaughtered.
Oh here we go again. Do you know how sick and tired I am of being accused of anti-semitism whenever one dares to criticize the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians?? I really expected something more eloquent from you, Sting. Just because the Jews were once the victim of a horrible massacre, doesn't give them the right to oppress other peoples.

Quote:

There are only 3 nations in Europe that have a higher standard of living than the USA, Switzerland, Norway, and Sweden. Canada and Australia are the other two nations ahead of the USA in standard of living.
You are talking about the UN Human Development Index, right? There are indeed 3 nations in Europe that have a higher standard of living than the USA, and these are Norway, Sweden and Belgium, and not Switzerland, as you said.
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Old 04-20-2003, 06:09 PM   #65
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Hell, there are Jewish people in Israel who love Israel but do not approve of their government's policies as per Palestinians. They don't love the terrorist outfits, either. There are alot of innocent people on both sides of the dispute. I imagine most Palestinians, most Syrians, *and* most Israelis etc, etc just are ordinary people trying to make a living, raising their kids and doing their best. I have friends in Israel and I worry about their safety sometimes. During the war I was petrified of an attack on Israel. Fortunately it didn't happen. Thank God.
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Old 04-21-2003, 03:21 AM   #66
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Electric Blue,


"Oh here we go again. Do you know how sick and tired I am of being accused of anti-semitism whenever one dares to criticize the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians?? I really expected something more eloquent from you, Sting. Just because the Jews were once the victim of a horrible massacre, doesn't give them the right to oppress other peoples."

That was not directed against you personally, but against a lot of people in Europe and a lot of different governments. I don't find Europe's treatment Israel in light of what Israel has had to suffer for the past 50 years, acceptable. Few European countries would tolerate what Israel has had to go through, if they were located within the same borders and in the middle east.

There was a UN peace plan in 1948 and the Arabs rejected it and attacked Israel on the day of its independence. Honestly, who is acting uncivilized? The Jews in Israel have been the victims of terror and war for the past 50 years. I find it surprising that you do not appreciate that.

We have members here at interference that have to worry about going to a disco Israel and getting blown up while perhaps listening to their favorite band. I would hope that you would at least understand the situation they have to go through everyday. Don't tell them their not being oppressed.

It is the people of Israel that have been oppressed in 4 wars, 1948,1956,1967,1973 and smaller raids incursions and terrorism for 50 years. If the Arabs had simply accepted the UN peace plan in 1948 instead of acting like uncivilized people this mess would not exist and the Palestinians would have 3 times the amount of land their ever going to get from any peace deal today. There are people that live in far worse conditions in other parts of the world, but they don't strap bombs to their bodies and run into disco's killing innocent teenagers listening to U2. Its about time the Palestinians developed a culture and political strategy that has a decent chance of giving them independence. 50 years of committing violence and terrorism has only made their living standards and position worse. Its time to try something different that actually has a chance of working.
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Old 04-21-2003, 12:27 PM   #67
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I'm with you Electric blue....

Sting2, I'll repeat myself as you have:

As far as suicide bombers go... You're right it is a terrible act and it must be horrifying for you not to be able to go to a bar and listen to U2. But the Palestinians suicide bombers are a product of Israeli oppression and humiliation. It is all this ­ the continuous oppression, the constant humiliation ­
which has given birth to the suicide bomber. The suicide bombers consider themselves freedom fighters fighting against the daily murder, destruction of their homes in favour of new settlements in Palestinian territory, the destruction of their stores and olive gardens.... all in favour of new settlements, therby shrinking Palestinian territory. They have lost everything, their homes, families, and land and stores... More importantly they've lost their freedom and live in shrinking isolation, poverty, and opression.



After 1948, Palestinians were literally robbed, displaced, forced out, ethnic cleansed, or forced to move to their new "territory".... In May 1948 the Zionists proclaimed the State of Israel as the homeland for the world's Jews. In 1947 Jews had formed less than a quarter of Palestine's population and that's with the immigration of Jews after the Holocaust. Even within the portion of Palestine allocated by the 1947 UN partition plan to the “Jewish state”, Arabs were the majority. Zionists claim that the Arabs' rejection of the partition plan means that the Palestinian Arabs have only themselves to blame for the further seizure of land by Israel between 1948 and 1949 (and, additionally in 1967). But clearly, why would the Palestinians accept such any U.N. offer to give up their land to foreign aggressors.

As far as deaths go, in this current intifada, sparked by the continuation of jewish settlements on Palestinian territory,
for every 10 Palestinians who dies, one Jew dies.... This has nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism rhetoric.... This is a war in my eyes, a war for freedom, a war for justice, a war against oppression, a war for humanity, and a war for land the Palestinians have lived on for centuries, prior to any jewish invasions.

As far as being in a nightclub goes, and fearing a suicide bomber/freedom fighter to blow himself up, perhaps you should lobby your Israeli government to withdraw from Palestinian territory and stop the daily bloodshed, seisure, and destruction of Palestinian homes in favour of new settlements. Why should you expect to live in peace and harmony when just a few miles away, your government, along with American weapons and support continues to reppress Palestinians.... They are being killed, tortured, oppressed, humiliated, and stripped of their right to live in peace on what little remains of their land.

ANd the idea that you give, "50 years of terrorism"... Do you expect an invading, colonizing force to be greeted with flowers? It's 50 years of war - If someone takes everything away from you: freedom, land, rights... If your family and friends are murderd, would you sit and watch or would you fight against the injustice and inhumane aggression and oppression... And if they take away your business.... If your home is bulldozed with your family or friends inside... IF your daughter, mother, father is killed at the hands of Israeli colonization... Who wouldn't fight back against such autrosities? Do you expect Palestinians to simply watch Israeli's colonize with American weapons and support... Who wouldn't fight back... If the Israeli colonists took everything away from you, murdered your family, stole your belongings, bulldozed your home, robbed your land, stole your business, inherited your olive gardens, deprived you of your freedom.... Who would simply sit and watch this happen for 50 years?

It's only human nature to fight back... But Sting2 be serious... to say that the Palestinians are terrorists for defending their right to a homeland, their rich history, their culture..... To say that they are terrorists because they fought back and tried to defend themselves against their illigel occcupation... To fight back to clame some sort of justice, to fight the daily murder of Palestinians, to fight the power of oppression. Palestinians are freedom fighters and why should they roll over and allow a foreign force to invade their country, divide it, and continue to illigelly build settlements on what little remains of their land.

I'm an internation law student and I've done alot of research on the Palestinian/Israeli problem... I've read the story on both sides and let me tell you, I've quite easily concluded that the Palestinian's have been robbed of their homeland at the hands of the Israeli's with American support.

Liberate the Palestinians next.... They've been deprived of their humanity and freedom.... The world, the U.N. must move to liberate the Palestinians... It's about time we stop the 50 year suffering at the hands of Israeli colonists.
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Old 04-21-2003, 04:56 PM   #68
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Man Inside The Child,

I'll let you read what I posted in the other thread to keep this brief.

First your characterization of the Israely's as invading colonist is a false one. Israely's have lived in the area as long as the Palestinians regardless of the numbers at any particular time. In the wake of the end of the Ottoman Empire, Jews had every right to form a state just like the Muslims did. The UN had the perfect plan for the people that had both been living there and rightfully owned the land they were living in 1948. The Arabs rejected a fair peace plan and invaded Israel. 5 Arab Countries invaded Israel in 1948. How is that an act of Justice, to invade a country who's existence has been approved by the United Nations. They invaded it to destroy and wipe the Jews from the middle east. If they had succeeded, there would have been a holocaust nearly as bad as the one the Jews suffered in Europe in World War II. If the 1948, peace plan was so wrong, why are the Arabs essentially asking for the same thing now! They could of had the same peace 50 years ago without all this mess!

Even if the Jews, were "invading colonist" which they are NOT, there would still be know rational justification for targeting and killing innocent Israely teenagers in a Disco perhaps listening to U2! I find it sick that you would attempt to justify that and instead of calling it terrorism you would call it the act of a freedom fighter! The teens in the disco listening to U2 have nothing to do with a Palistinians mistaken belief or feeling of oppression and humiliation!

The Israely Defense force is totally justified in going after terrorist that hide among the Palestinian civilians. The Israely Defense force targets terrorist and not innocent civilians. Innocent civilians are accidently killed in anti-terror operations because the Palestinian terrorist attempt to hide and blend in with the civilian population. This is part of the reason why the terrorist hide among the Palestinian civilian population, to ensure members of their population are killed even by accident, so as to accuse the Israely's of targeting civilians which is rubish. If the Israely goal was to kill innocent civilians, all the Palestinian civilians in the West Bank and Gaza would have been killed 3 decades ago!

Even if there was this freedom fighter justification for the Palestinian Terrorist, its clear that if their goal is an independent state, their strategy and tactics have been totally ineffective for 50 years now. Violence and terrorism have failed to produce an independent state and they never will! Israel is to powerful for Palestinian terrorist.

It would be smart if the Palestinians adopted tactics that had a chance of actually working. African Americans in the USA achieved civil rights through non-violent action. The Non-violent action was successful, because US democracy was suceptible to such non-violent action.

Is there such a thing as a Non-violent Palestinian movement for independence? I don't think so! Their strategy has been violence and terrorism for 50 years. That strategy is not going to give them an independent state! Since Israel is a democracy with laws, its about time they took a page out of Martin Luther King's book and attempted Non-violent action to achieve their goal of independent statehood! Israel is very susceptible to such action because it is a democracy with laws. Also, Jews would be far more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause if it was "Non-violent" one that was not attempting to murder them in their homes, Schools, Buses, Cafe's, and other places. The citizens of Israel would then be more likely to push for leaders and governments that would more swiftly bring about and independent Palestine, because their security would not longer be threatened.

Would it hurt the Palestinians to stop the terrorism and use only non-violent action to achieve independence? I think not since the violence and terror option has only made things increasingly difficult and worse for the average Palestinian over the past 50 years!

I'd like to inform you your not the only one at FYM that has studied International Relations and Law and this particular situation in great detail from both sides!

Israely citizens deserve to live in peace and security and should not have to fear going to the local pub.

Its about time Palestinian terrorist and Arab aggression against Israel stopped. It has achieved NOTHING in 50 years and will never achieve an independent Palestine. Only through negotiation and non-violent action will the Palestinians ever get and independent State! Its about time the Palestinians stopped the ineffective violence and tried something that might actually work!
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:45 PM   #69
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I'm for a stable and peaceful Israel *and* a peaceful and stable Palestinian state. I wish these guys would put their guns down and let this happen. I'm really tired of reading about all of this hate and killing and such that's going on.
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Old 04-22-2003, 12:20 AM   #70
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Sting,

You know what, believe it or not, I agree with you, I feel that the Palestinians do need a Martin Luther King and an non-violent approach to the scenerio, unfortunately Yasser Arafat as an uneducated, embezzling, guerilla fighter with little to offer the Palestinians. I've actually said that before, that they should mimic the African-American movement and strive to gain support both domestically and internationally.

But Sharon is no better... A mass murderer (who in on one order killed 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinian dead and the Sabra and Shatila massacres) who I don't think has much intention for peace as the building of settlements has increased in his power.... That is what has spurred such retaliation from the Palestinians. That is what has spurred the suicide bombing... Suicide bombing is a sad reality in Palestine... Everything has been taken away from them and they feel as though they must give up their lives to give freedom to future generations... You may say that attacking a disco is harsh, and yes i think your right, but so is bulldozing a home with a family still inside... Such events create the suicide bomber... Do I agree with suicide bombing... No, I actually agree with your point that there should be a non violent approach. But we are looking on from a position of peace, having not lived through the oppression, aggression, and murder.

As Colombia and Berkely Professor/Intellectual suggests "Sharon government's preposterous claim that Israel is the victim, the Palestinians the aggressors in the four- decade war that the Israeli army has waged against civilians, property and institutions without mercy or discrimination. The result today is that the Palestinians are locked up in 220 ghettos controlled by the army; American-supplied Apache helicopters, Merkava tanks, and F-16s mow down people, houses, olive groves and fields on a daily basis; schools and universities as well as businesses and civil institutions are totally disrupted; hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed and tens of thousands injured (that's only in the past year); Israel's assassinations of Palestinian leaders continue; unemployment and poverty stand at about 50 per cent -- and all this while General Anthony Zinni drones on about Palestinian "violence" to the wretched Arafat, who can't even leave his office in Ramallah because he is imprisoned there by Israeli tanks, while his several tattered security forces scamper about trying to survive the destruction of their offices and barracks. " What I find interesting is that "Israel's assassination of Palestinian leaders continue"... Perhaps the Israeli's prefer the poor and corrupt leadership of Yasser Arafat as they continually hunt down any potential leader attempting to start a freedom movement. I'm with you though Sting, I want to see non-violent resistence, but the Israeli government must allow some sort of leadership to arise.


We must understand that the Palestinians and Israeli's are two communities of suffering, but at the present time, one has tremendous power. The other is a victim of this former victim. But on a positive note... all human conflict is created by humans and it can be solved by humans."

I'm with you Sting, the violence must stop, the suicide bombing must stop... but that will only stop when Israel seizes the continued building of settlements on what little remains of Palestinian territory... Are you with me?
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Old 04-22-2003, 12:59 PM   #71
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I don't like either Sharon or Arafat. The Palestinians do need a leader like Martin Luther King, and Sharon isn't the leader Israel needs. If they are going to stop the unfortunate violence and killings and such they need to make some major changes on both sides of the conflict. Just my purple tuppence's worth.
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Old 04-22-2003, 11:13 PM   #72
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If 9/11 has showed us anything, is that this world is far from safe. My world was transformed on that day, and I know I wasn't the only one.

The world has changed, we can either keep our heads in the sand or act, our president is doing exactly that. He could have done the easiest thing, he could have done what France and others chose to do, but no, he's gone ahead with what he feels is right and I support him 100%.
Now, you can try to accuse him of this and that, of forgetting the 'real' issues such as finance and economy, but the fact is he is confronting all of these issues head on, as well as trying to protect the world from people like Saddam. I don't agree with this 'liberation', it WAS liberation for the Iraqis, and it will be liberation for the others who are oppressed by their leaders.
Who will be next to be liberated? I don't know, but there are far too many oppresive regimes out there who could do with some democracy for their people.

Peace to all.
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Old 04-23-2003, 01:03 AM   #73
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Man Inside The Suitcase,

My response to your repost of this post is in the Free Your Mind main area forum where your latest post here was origionally posted.
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Old 04-23-2003, 05:09 AM   #74
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John Milton:

This world was never safe - now the globalisation of violence reached US territory.
We planted the demon seed - now we get back what generations before us screwed up with their "me first" politics.

The liberation of the world is a noble idea, but as long as there are too many economic interests, and the "liberator" uses his liberation to get companies of his country to take advance of the liberation there will be a bad taste left which could lead to violence in long term against the liberators.

Remember what we did in the past - our countries never said "let's install a dictator" they allways promised that it would be the best for our and their safety...

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Old 04-23-2003, 02:59 PM   #75
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woohoo! Iran is BAD!

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration has warned the Iranian government to stay out of Iraq and not interfere with the country in its "road to democracy," the White House said Wednesday.

While not explicitly confirming reports that Iranian agents were making their way into Iraq, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said, "We have concerns about this matter.

"We have well-known channels of communication with Iran, and we have made clear to Iran that we oppose the outside interference in Iraq's road to democracy. ... Infiltration of agents to destabilize the Shiite population would clearly fall into that category."

A Pentagon official Wednesday told CNN that intelligence reports received in the past few days indicate an unknown number of Iranian-backed agents have moved into southern Iraq to promote Shiite and Iranian interests with the Shia community there.

The reports indicate the Iranians are operating around Najaf, Karbala and Basra. Some of them may be members of the Badr Brigade, a Shiite militia group based in Iran, this official said.

A majority of Iraq's population are Shiite Muslims, and thousands have attended rallies calling for the creation of an Islamic state in Iraq and demanding that U.S-led coalition forces leave.

Fleischer would not say at what level or through what means the message was communicated to Iran. The United States and Iran do not have diplomatic relations.
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