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Old 02-09-2005, 08:31 PM   #31
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Without getting too personal, Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of the World, but most importantly:

"Jesus built my car, it's a love affair, mainly Jesus and my hot rod."

Has anybody read Jose Saramago's "The Gospel According to Jesus Christ?" I read it while I was in Portugal this last summer. It gave me a lot to think about as far as man's historical portrayal of Jesus.
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Old 02-09-2005, 09:39 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by seankirkland
"came up with some very good ideas."

when He claimed to be the Son of God, that's a pretty bold "good idea." He put too much on the table to be viewed as just a good, or even great, person. He's either all or nothing (the Savior/Son of God or a madman).
I do agree with this. It's interesting how the man can be admired so much by atheists, as he claimed to be the son of God. He claimed he was the only way to heaven. This didn't just piss off people who didn't believe in God. It turned quite a few insane because their vision of a Messiah was someone who didn't laugh, cry, or express any other human emotions. Their vision of the Messiah was also against reaching out to social outcasts.

He revolutionized the world. Before his time came, people thought that the rich were favored by God. Then again on the other hand, I think it's a little funny when people dislike him because he "has no place in secular liberal politics." I think of his humanity as the best example set by any person. I think of his divinity as something that is hard to believe, but how animal sacrifices were used to symbolize the ultimate sacrifice before the time came, it makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 02-09-2005, 09:45 PM   #33
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I think that the philosophy and religion built around Jesus Christ even if Jesus never existed and was a personification of ideals plays one of the most critical roles in the formation of western civilization from the Roman Empire right up to the Enlightenment and today ~ think of it as an injection of Oriental philosophy into the Occident.
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Old 02-10-2005, 07:03 AM   #34
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That's pretty interesting to think that Christianity started and has progressed for 2000 years if Jesus never even existed. ??? I don't think the apostles would've gone from scared out of their wits to boldly proclaiming the power of Jesus if they had never had any kind of relationship with, let alone knowledge of, the man, Jesus Christ. He had to have existed or they wouldn't have been tortured to death. Would you let yourself be tortured and maimed for a fairy tale?
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Old 02-10-2005, 07:14 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by seankirkland
Would you let yourself be tortured and maimed for a fairy tale?
People have castered themselves because some crazy cult leader told them to...

But let's stay on topic, like the original poster said let's not argue the validity and just explain what he means to you.
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Old 02-10-2005, 07:29 AM   #36
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I don't want to go off-topic, but.....

has that "crazy cult leader" had the influence to such a degree that people 1000 years later are dedicating their lives and dying for him/her?
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Old 02-10-2005, 07:30 AM   #37
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.....and you said castered themselves.....

it's one thing to do something to yourself, but to let someone else be the one with the power to kill you is another matter.
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:03 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by seankirkland
.....and you said castered themselves.....

it's one thing to do something to yourself, but to let someone else be the one with the power to kill you is another matter.
Hello look around you. There are people dying, being held prisoner, tortured, etc for their beliefs all over this world, and not all are Christians. So to say people allowing themselves this pain proves something is ridiculous.
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:24 AM   #39
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I'm saying, in reference and in the context of what you said, that people are martyred and killed for the sake of Jesus 2000 years from the time he was here, in the form of a human as the Son of God. I'm not sure if people in the year 3970 would be drinking Kool-Aid for the memory of Jim what's his name. I'm saying that there must be some sort of power behind a historical man named Jesus other than that he was just a good man for people to still be willing to go through pain and death for his sake all these years later. I agree that there are many, not all of them Christians, who are being tortured for their beliefs around the world. That wasn't what I was saying. I do want to correct something. The apostles who were killed weren't necessarily "allowing themselves to be." They were caught and then killed. Instead, they considered themselves blessed to be able to die for the sake of Jesus, because some werent' happy that they were still talking about him and doing great works for people in the name of Christ. The name and nature of Jesus does draw some sort of unearthly hate from those that don't want to hear or see it. There is power in the name of Jesus.
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:25 AM   #40
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:31 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by seankirkland
I'm saying that there must be some sort of power behind a historical man named Jesus other than that he was just a good man for people to still be willing to go through pain and death for his sake all these years later.
Same can be said for most major religions in this world. I'm no longer going off topic. But just take a look around and take a look at every religion, see what people all over this world put up with for their religion and you'll come up with the same conclusion.

I'm not saying that makes all religions the same, it just makes your logic faulty.
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:06 PM   #42
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Show me any other religion (I hate that term; I have a living, ongoing relationship to God, through Jesus not a stuffy, lifeless, set of rules that truly is boring) that doesn't make you earn your "salvation" and that has a living Savior. We can get into it way deep here, but those are the differences that set Christian faith apart. GRACE ("she travels outside of karma, karma.....") is what sets you free.
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:21 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by seankirkland
Show me any other religion (I hate that term; I have a living, ongoing relationship to God, through Jesus not a stuffy, lifeless, set of rules that truly is boring) that doesn't make you earn your "salvation" and that has a living Savior. We can get into it way deep here, but those are the differences that set Christian faith apart. GRACE ("she travels outside of karma, karma.....") is what sets you free.
That has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about. I'm not arguing the differences of religion, for that's not the reason for this thread. But you made the ridiculous statement "He had to have existed or they wouldn't have been tortured to death. Would you let yourself be tortured and maimed for a fairy tale?". That's just faulty logic, for many religions have people doing the same thing.

This is nothing against Christiainity in fact I'm a believer. I just don't believe in your type of logic.
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:25 PM   #44
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No, in fact, it makes great sense. If Jesus never existed, why would the apostles go around preaching and healing people in some guy named "Jesus'" name and then be put to death for it? First of all, they wouldn't be out putting their lives on the line for someone who didn't exist (or maybe they would if they lived their lives in schizophrenic madness) and they certainly wouldn't put up with being crucified upside down for someone along the lines of the Easter Bunny. Doesn't that make sense? Jesus had to have existed or everything falls apart in terms of the Book of Acts and everything afterwards, including all the millions of people and believers that followed these past 2000 years. Or all we all deluded?
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:37 PM   #45
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Quote:
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No, in fact, it makes great sense. If Jesus never existed, why would the apostles go around preaching and healing people in some guy named "Jesus'" name and then be put to death for it? First of all, they wouldn't be out putting their lives on the line for someone who didn't exist (or maybe they would if they lived their lives in schizophrenic madness) and they certainly wouldn't put up with being crucified upside down for someone along the lines of the Easter Bunny. Doesn't that make sense? Jesus had to have existed or everything falls apart in terms of the Book of Acts and everything afterwards, including all the millions of people and believers that followed these past 2000 years. Or all we all deluded?
Ok this is that time I'm responding to you because it's like talking to a wall. I understand everything you are saying but you are ignoring all the others being tortured, killed, and imprisoned for their other religions. Using your logic then Mohamed and many others really did exist as well. You are saying BECAUSE these people are willing to do this, that is proof this person existed. And that would pretty much go against everything you stated therefore your logic is flawed.
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