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Old 12-17-2005, 06:52 AM   #76
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
a chicken is a very dumb bird

Fuck the ELF, ALF, PETA and all other of the fucking anti-human "animal-rights" groups and their thuggish tactics. I will enjoy my modern medicine, pets and leathe clothing - they should just live their damn lives without.
That says it all. Congratulations. You are a very intelligent modern human.

As to the way we treat our animals, I wasn´t referring to the method of killing, but to the method of keeping them before of killing them. For me, it makes a difference whether a chicken is living its life on a farm with enough place, other chicken, grass, nature etc. around, or if 60 chicken are stuck on one square metre of space behind bars, getting so crazy they are biting each other´s wings off, living a life full of aggression. Besides, it also makes a difference in the taste of meat whether a cow is pumped full of hormones or not.

How can you be naive enough to believe that living in an industrial plant is not inflicting undue pain? For you it doesn´t make a difference, hah. If it was you instead of them, it would.



If it was you behind these bars it would.

You talked about honey or pets. I have explained in my previous posts that I am all for the use of the productivity of animals as long as mankind stays humble. A beekeeper, or an owner of a pet, treats animals very very different from the owner of a mass chicken farm.

This is my last post regarding that topic, since you have done a good job of describing your belief - that worships technology, but despises creation and life - over-abundantely clear.
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Old 12-17-2005, 06:57 AM   #77
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That picture made me realize that i worked in such a farm for more than a year. when i was 16 years old,....and after that i know the respect for animals starts when people have the luxury to buy ecologic or biological produced food. I mean, it comes with a price. That farms will disapear when everyone will be able ( and wants ) to spend a 3 cents extra for a egg.
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Old 12-17-2005, 07:40 AM   #78
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Lets See:

> Resistant too change
> Strict and dogmatic worldview
> Themes of apocalyptic danger to creation from evil
> Places am inherent moral value upon life
> Supernatural underpinnings and willfull abandon of logic.
> Emotional faith based arguments ahead of empirical evidence.

Yes, sure seems to match a broad definition of religious belief.

I think that I proved my point well enough about the near religious belief that is demanded by some quarters that ilicits the same righteous anger when threatened. Yes this worldview is as much if not more of a threat to humanity than creationism. It is anti-human and technophobic and if followed to the logical conclusion would lead to a fuckload of people (im talking single digits multiplied by ten to the power of nine big) dying in mass starvation until the numbers reach a naturally sustainable level, like any fundamentalist belief system it can lead to violence and terrorism such as the ALF.

Fuck, poke at the belief system enough and people will get damn riled up and you can get a response more akin to that of a bible thumping true believer than a reasonable and logical individual.

I worship the anti-Christ (technology), that despises creation and life maybe us infidels should be burned at the stake - no wait that pollutes the environment - okay just dump us out in the ocean somewhere and we can feed some fish. Then they can keep going after the "bad sciences" of genetic engineering and nuclear physics that will lead to ruin and lead humanity away from nature.

I guess my contempt for life makes sense given my sheer enjoyment of looking at dead things (fossils) and studying death at the level of species (evolutionary biology). I guess when I look at life on earth from the perspective of the 99% of all species that ever existed on earth being extinct and the inevitable natural creep of extinction and regeneration of biodiversity it is very easy to turn into such a goul.
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Old 12-17-2005, 08:48 AM   #79
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Oh one more point I think that I may be a mass murderer because just this september I killed 1653 Drosophila melanogaster just to find out how giving them ammonia in their nutrient base would effect their life cycle and fecundity over generations

Guilt and fear are powerful emotion tools, historically used by religious authorities and politicians alike to keep people in line; that is why we are the moral equivalent of Nazis if we don't believe that a fucking chicken has the same rights and status as a human being, people generally don't want to be Nazi's so they can be guilt tripped into going along with the argument. Likewise upsetting the balance of nature by changing organisms so that human beings can gain more for less is inherently wrong and must be opposed outright, cost be dammed. If you don't agree then you are the anti-life bringer of the apocalypse.
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Old 12-17-2005, 09:30 AM   #80
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Reread my statement: "this argument serves as an excuse for mankind to treat animals just like Nazis treated Jews in concentration camps". I stand by that statement because in many situations mankind does not treat animals any better.

I never got personal in that sense, so will you stop that guilt trip? You´re not the victim of the situation.

Thanks.
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Old 12-17-2005, 09:43 AM   #81
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No I think the victim is the poor sap who would be duped into towing the line because of the implied moral equivalence and emotional appeal (what if it was you!?). Maybe they can pony up some money when confronted with the posters care of PETA?







Wow, classy but hey who the fuck am I to complain, I despise life

It's nothing personal, but this fucking campaign is built on the same kernel that your argument is. If you genuinely didn't mean a moral equivalence then I can accept that, but the church has spoken and it's dogma is diametrically opposed to my anti-Christ moral compass. Oh an here is your full quote, for context of course
Quote:
You think human life has a higher value? Our race has a higher value? Go ahead, this argument serves as an excuse for mankind to treat animals just like Nazis treated Jews in concentration camps.
this argument refers to me putting the life of a human being ahead of that of another species of animal. You then elaborate to a rhetorical question to suggest a race based issue, because plainly if I see a difference between a chicken and a human then I would have the same attitude towards other human beings. I think people can decide what you were saying.

I am nothing but bemused at this religious belief system.

A paradox emerges, if all animals were to be considered equal, and that some animals would be justified in eating other animals then is there any real difference between a human eating a fish and eating another human being? We really need a Green Moses to lay down the law from on high, maybe he can talk with the animals and get some consensus.

Well after that sickening display this is the product of the green revolution. This is why mass famine a'la 'The Population Bomb' has been averted, this is why forests have been saved and people are getting more calories than they ever have.



link

Brought to the world care of other anti-life minded people.
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Old 12-17-2005, 08:13 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet

in all seriousness, or some form of seriousness, what are your problems with Karma? Or, am i missing something that happened in some previous forum?
You misunderstand. I am not the one with problems.

And yes, you have missed many discussions on the subject right here in FYM.
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Old 12-17-2005, 09:25 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


You misunderstand. I am not the one with problems.

And yes, you have missed many discussions on the subject right here in FYM.
I figured i must've missed something.
whenhiphop, it seems like you have a hegelian philosophy about the world. do you indeed see the world as a mystical being? what does it mean for us to be humble? what does the picture look like of us using animal produced products while remaining humble?
wanderer, you do seem to care about the problems our world faces. you also criticize the notion that our code of morality stems from a god of some kind. what is your picture then like? how do we form moral codes? why should you bother caring about others? some philosophers have argued that everyone ought to just be selfish - society in fact will benefit best that way. your thoughts?
This was not the direction i forsaw with this discussion, but hey it's interesting and a little different than the typical bash-liberals/bash-conservatives type of forum, and it's still related to my topic.
thanks and keep it going
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Old 12-17-2005, 10:32 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet

where does this belief come from?
What do you mean?

I'm really tired, so I'm not sure I follow you .

If you're asking where abouts the term karma etc comes from, I'm pretty sure it's from India, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong. What you give you always get back in return.
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Old 12-17-2005, 10:53 PM   #85
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Morals are a biproduct of social interaction influencing the evolution of human beings, they are innate emotions that maximise the opportunity for individual reproduction by means of group protection. It is grounded in emotion and at points produces illogical responses.

We can draft logical axioms to craft morality based on the no-harm principle. For many of us we are beyond hunter-gatherer societies and have developed philosophy.

We bother to care about others out of reciprocal altruism and genetic hard wiring. We can try to fight against this and vigourously pursue a life of virtuous self-interest but being a Randian superman generally entails being an utter bastard.

I don't believe in God and I have experienced euphoria before, but I understand it to be the working of brain chemistry and not supernatural intervention.
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Old 12-18-2005, 01:42 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I don't believe in God and I have experienced euphoria before, but I understand it to be the working of brain chemistry and not supernatural intervention.
I guess as far as religion goes, this is a big difference b/t you and me. You know though, this is interesting to me. See, for me this is blind faith that this intervention you speak of is a blessing from God. And I love how He works in my life.

But now I'm interested in how this is the workings of the brain. Can you explain how you see this as so?

And Whenhiphop,
As long as Iowa isn't wiped off the face of the earth somehow, there will always be farmland. And I will support it.
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Old 12-18-2005, 03:32 AM   #87
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Feelings of intense happiness coupled with an almost tingling sensation down my back and a wave of feeling across my scalp. Sparked by emotional responses, completing the biological imperitive or stimulated by opiates. The control of these is very complex and I have not studied very much neurology, I do understand that dopamine is an important neurotransmitter but it's function is not quite as simple as a increased levels = increased happiness.

Like everything else in the universe we are but a complex system that can be reduced to it's basic components; energy, dimensions and fundamental physical laws. Interactions born from these are what forms everything in the universe and it is not impossible to explain them.
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Old 12-18-2005, 07:00 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by MacHat


What do you mean?

I'm really tired, so I'm not sure I follow you .

If you're asking where abouts the term karma etc comes from, I'm pretty sure it's from India, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong. What you give you always get back in return.
i'm interested in understanding where your particular belief about karma comes from? what experiences make in undoubtable?
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Old 12-18-2005, 07:02 AM   #89
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Feelings of intense happiness coupled with an almost tingling sensation down my back and a wave of feeling across my scalp. Sparked by emotional responses, completing the biological imperitive or stimulated by opiates. The control of these is very complex and I have not studied very much neurology, I do understand that dopamine is an important neurotransmitter but it's function is not quite as simple as a increased levels = increased happiness.

Like everything else in the universe we are but a complex system that can be reduced to it's basic components; energy, dimensions and fundamental physical laws. Interactions born from these are what forms everything in the universe and it is not impossible to explain them.
I've never understood why natural explanations neccesarily eradicate the possibilty of God. Might the way we are be a result of some design?
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Old 12-18-2005, 11:51 AM   #90
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^ Agreed

I don't know...I still sit here and feel the same way. I mean, I agree we are a complex system. I agree these feelings and sometimes even tinglings can come at times where I am not so much thinking about God and his grace. Yeah probably they are b/c of our make-up However, to me, I usually thank God for them while they are happening or later when it hits me how good God was to me in whatever situation brought the feelings upon me. Does this make sense?

Recap? Sure. My body is how it is and how you think it is, complex. But perhaps God made it or perhaps God uses it and brings on those feelings. I believe he did and he does.
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